or the wrestler could slip on the ground and hit his head and pass out...there are so many variables to take into account during a "fight" there's no clean way to settle this
The point of a style vs style is not to reach a conclusion on who would win. It is to see people's points of view and what they think. There is nothing wrong with debating on stuff like this. It only becomes stupid when it turns into a heated argument and personal attacks start. Martial Talk doesn't seem to have that many immature people who would turn something like this into a big argument (unlike Martial Arts Planet Forum).bignick said:
Anyone disagree?
This is the original post in this thread:
My biggest problem is that these discussions go nowhere, just sit and spin their wheels...or they do break out into flame wars....
Yes, martial talk does seem to suffer from relatively few of these...especially with how active it is and the varied views of all it's members....but why push things?
The problem I feel is that it treats these arts as one dimensional...BJJer's would dominate on the ground, but wrestlers could destroy them standing up...and both arts are more complex than that and it's a disservice to simplify them so.Cobra said:
My biggest problem is that these discussions go nowhere, just sit and spin their wheels...or they do break out into flame wars....
Yes, martial talk does seem to suffer from relatively few of these...especially with how active it is and the varied views of all it's members....but why push things?
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OC Kid
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- #44
Well I dont normally get into these sort of conversations..but
How many actual bar fights/street brawls have any of you been in. How long have you been in the MA.
Its my opinion is its up to the indiviual. A instructor as I tell my students can teach but cant make you learn.
A good stand up fighter is definately where its at. But Im starting to learn some grappleing just to teach to my students because of the possibility of them being taken down.
The falacy of 90% of all fights go to the ground is just that. Anytime a fighter goes to the ground its when hes ready to be stomped on by either the guy who knocked him down or his buddies or both.
A bud of mine was in Bagdag. he was involed in the house to house fighting that took place in the invasion. He went hand to hand and recieved a purple heart for it. Did he go on the ground..Not on your life. He told me me there is no way he would go on the ground with any one. The idea of training is not to go on the ground.
I dont know much about grappling like I said but I know how to fight If you take art just for fighting then its best to learn from the sneakiest, meanest SOB you know. Most good fighters have a lot of tricks that are just not taught in a school. Example a instructor can teach a student techniques but can he teach a student the ability to survive?
That comes from with in.
How many instructors can teach a student instincts. The ability to when they are being set up. Such as some hot babe inna bar or even school flirting with you getting you away from the crowd and then her BF beating the crap outta ya and rolling you.
Even those so called reality based training programs cant teach you the skills you really need. Ive never seen anyone in the UFC or K1 getting hit with a beer bottle or pool cue from behind and have 2 or 3 guys jump on him.
How many actual bar fights/street brawls have any of you been in. How long have you been in the MA.
Its my opinion is its up to the indiviual. A instructor as I tell my students can teach but cant make you learn.
A good stand up fighter is definately where its at. But Im starting to learn some grappleing just to teach to my students because of the possibility of them being taken down.
The falacy of 90% of all fights go to the ground is just that. Anytime a fighter goes to the ground its when hes ready to be stomped on by either the guy who knocked him down or his buddies or both.
A bud of mine was in Bagdag. he was involed in the house to house fighting that took place in the invasion. He went hand to hand and recieved a purple heart for it. Did he go on the ground..Not on your life. He told me me there is no way he would go on the ground with any one. The idea of training is not to go on the ground.
I dont know much about grappling like I said but I know how to fight If you take art just for fighting then its best to learn from the sneakiest, meanest SOB you know. Most good fighters have a lot of tricks that are just not taught in a school. Example a instructor can teach a student techniques but can he teach a student the ability to survive?
That comes from with in.
How many instructors can teach a student instincts. The ability to when they are being set up. Such as some hot babe inna bar or even school flirting with you getting you away from the crowd and then her BF beating the crap outta ya and rolling you.
Even those so called reality based training programs cant teach you the skills you really need. Ive never seen anyone in the UFC or K1 getting hit with a beer bottle or pool cue from behind and have 2 or 3 guys jump on him.
I think its important to keep in mind that while BJJ certainly hit a huge craze in the early 90's, its not the 'ultimate art' but it is important to have a basic understanding of grappling, at the very least, to be able to properly be able to get up from the ground.
Alot of people seem to neglect this training because they think just that...that they'll never end up there. Well, I dont know of many if any at all that can predict the future, so I really dont understand how anyone can say they'll never end up there.
IMO, its wise to have an understanding of all the ranges of fighting. I have never tried to steer people away from their current training, to go and take up BJJ for the next 20yrs, but at least get familiar with the ground. If you've never been there, I can assure you its a very different feeling. I remember my first grappling lesson. To give me an example, we started off in the mount. He then told me to get out from under him. Well, after about 10min of trying, with no success, I was convinced and began my grappling training.
Mike
Alot of people seem to neglect this training because they think just that...that they'll never end up there. Well, I dont know of many if any at all that can predict the future, so I really dont understand how anyone can say they'll never end up there.
IMO, its wise to have an understanding of all the ranges of fighting. I have never tried to steer people away from their current training, to go and take up BJJ for the next 20yrs, but at least get familiar with the ground. If you've never been there, I can assure you its a very different feeling. I remember my first grappling lesson. To give me an example, we started off in the mount. He then told me to get out from under him. Well, after about 10min of trying, with no success, I was convinced and began my grappling training.
Mike
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CurtisB
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- #46
I've been in a lot of these discussions on other forums and they all seem to go the same way with the same arguments. First off going to the ground is not something you want in a real self-defense situation. But that can't always be avoided. You may trip or slip, you may be tackled from behind or the side know your on the ground the guy is on you and he's flailing the hell out of you what are you going to do if you've never trained for that.
Traditional BJJ is good but must be modified to deal with this situation. Most progressive BJJ schools are now training No GI.
Our school adds elements of catch as catch can (good for leg locks and inflicting lots of pain) and Greco-Roman wrestling. We train to control the situation so we can get back on our feet as soon as possible. When you train this way you find that against an unskilled grappler its not that hard to gain the control you need.
The bottom line is you don't want to be on the ground but sometimes you have no choice so you must be prepared. I have seen fights go to the ground on asphalt, concrete and gravel and I'm here to tell you when the adrenaline is pumping all you are thinking of is surviving you can ***** about the pain later.
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eric
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- #47
This topic will go on and on forever....but it has been stated before - each art has its strong points. Whatever area one spends his or her time training in whill be good in that area. Judo = throws, wrestling= takedowns and control, bjj= ground work and submissions, kempo and boxing = strikes. At our school we are bjj but we have guys that are excellent wrestlers and others who have boxed and another who is an established judo bb. We all recognize each others strengths and try to learn what is beneficial from each.
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JDenz
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- #48
I agree with there will be no answet to the question because it all depends on the indivudual that is why everyone today is adding the ground game into there styles because everyone needs to be well rounded these days.
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SammyB57
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- #49
K1 is kickboxing, that's why you don't see grappling, unless they are using MMA rules.
Wrestling slams will knock you out on concrete.
It's funny how people can jump to conclusions about arts they don't actually practice.
Wrestling slams will knock you out on concrete.
It's funny how people can jump to conclusions about arts they don't actually practice.
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JDenz
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- #50
Ya I meant to post that to that is what I get for writting high on pain meds lol. In K-1 there is definitly no grappling allowed Every now and then they have a fight on the card with diffrent rules but by and large grappling is not allowed. Actully they don't let you pull a guy into knees anymore either.
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JKD_Silat
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- #51
I have six years of very sucsessful competitive wrestling experience. The first day I went to Eddie Bravo's no gi Jiu Jitsu school, I rolled with Gerald Strebent, whom I have a good 50 lbs on at least. Dude! Gerald ran a "submission clinic" on me! I found that the positions I thought were best, were exposing me to submissions, and after giving my back, and paying for it, I became a "believer". The funny thing was, Gerald was very much holding back (thank god), or he probably would have slapped a Twister on me.
From my experience, I could prevent being taken down, & take a lot of BJJ guys down at will (hell, they probably let me), however, I invariably made mistakes on the ground, or simply wasn't able to capitalize on theirs. The end result is I pretty much got schooled. I'm now a student of Eddie's, & I'm gradually learning to use my strenghts from wrestling, ie; takedowns, sprawls, manueverability, limb controll, and incorporating submissions to my ground game. Eddie very much encourages using my wrestling strenghts in my ground game, as he is extremly open minded.
Yes, I know that my experiences were friendly and not actually "fighting", however, at the end of the day, both BJJ, and wrestling have strenghts that can be learned from, and both have a lot to offer. It is not the "styles" that really counts, as ,much as it is the man utilizing them. He who is adept at both BJJ, wrestling, and striking would be formidable indeed. Like Randy Couture.
From my experience, I could prevent being taken down, & take a lot of BJJ guys down at will (hell, they probably let me), however, I invariably made mistakes on the ground, or simply wasn't able to capitalize on theirs. The end result is I pretty much got schooled. I'm now a student of Eddie's, & I'm gradually learning to use my strenghts from wrestling, ie; takedowns, sprawls, manueverability, limb controll, and incorporating submissions to my ground game. Eddie very much encourages using my wrestling strenghts in my ground game, as he is extremly open minded.
Yes, I know that my experiences were friendly and not actually "fighting", however, at the end of the day, both BJJ, and wrestling have strenghts that can be learned from, and both have a lot to offer. It is not the "styles" that really counts, as ,much as it is the man utilizing them. He who is adept at both BJJ, wrestling, and striking would be formidable indeed. Like Randy Couture.
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JKD_Silat
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- #52
CrushingFist said:
Actually, wrestling dates back thousands of years to ancient Greece, when feuding factions, and clans would send their warriors to fight, and compete. This was seen as goodwill, however, often times wrestling matches went to the death. Being maimed was not uncommon as well. Eventually, wrestling has evolved to its present forms such as Freestyle, and Greco Roman. Real wrestling is a game of chess with endless moves, and counter moves, and bears zero resemblance to the spectacle that borrows it's namesake on tv.Todays elite wrestles are widley regarded as being among the most highly conditioned athletes on the planet. Reason enough to respect their formadability in combat.
As far as it working in the street, I for one would never want to face Dan Severn, Kevin Randalman, Mark Kerr, Don Frye, Mark Coleman, or current UFC light heavyweight champion Randy Couture (all world class wrestlers) in a dark alley. Ever. I doubt you would too.
Please excuse my rambling diatribe, and poor typing . It's 3 am, and I've just got back from doing cardio at the gym after training my JKD, FMA, and BJJ all day.( I'm lucky to live in LA, the mecca of some of the best teachers arround.)
I'm half asleep, but I had to reply when I read this thread since wrestling will always hold a special place in my heart.
Regards
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JKD_Silat
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BTW. Boxing, and Muay Thai (you train in both) are sports, and no one in their right mind would question their real life combat effectiveness....CrushingFist said:
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JKD_Silat
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- #54
I'll be sure to post when I have an opinion on this subject. 
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JKD_Silat
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- #55
Ditto what Mike said. Ignorance is death...MJS said:
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JKD_Silat
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- #56
Not nesecarily with the advent of no gi Jiu Jitsu. It depends on the men, and the attributes of the men as well. Skill, and attributes (endurance, flexibility, balance, timming, strength, coordination, visual/spacial acuity, speed, killer instinct/will to survive, ect.) are both importaint. Having balance in both skill and attributes are vital. See my above post about how MR. Strebent effortlessly made me his "girlfriend" on the mat.Bod said:
(ok, I'm going to bed for real this time. My girlfriend is getting p1ss3d!)
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