Testing the root/structure

[Danny T]

Of course it's the same. What makes you think I can't root myself...it's very easy..you have to change stance..that's the answer..like the low horse

Yea...
We practice maintaining our root with pressure from the front, the sides, and the back being pushed and being pulled. The body mechanics of maintaining the root within the body is different but is certainly possible. Easy even once one knows what to do and when.

 

[geezer]

Disagree!

When your opponent

- "pushes" you, you can transfer that force down to your back leg and into the ground.
- "pulls" you, since you can't transfer that force down to the ground, what will you do?

This is why we can find so many "group pushing" demo. But we can't find even one "group pulling" demo.

Good point, John. So simple and obvious, yet so many don't get it.

In our WC when pushed, we can deflect and redirect, or root and absorb, directing the force into the ground ...as you pointed out.

When pulled, we go forward with the force, using it against our opponent. Consequently, we make it a habit of avoiding pulling so our opponent won't return the favor.

@Futsao: If, as we do, you maintain forward pressure, why would you drop into a low horse and resist a pull, even if you can? When the way is free, go forwards!

Check out the examples in the video below:
Deflecting/evading a push 8:38
Going with and using a pull 8:48

 

[futsaowingchun]

Good point, John. So simple and obvious, yet so many don't get it.

In our WC when pushed, we can deflect and redirect, or root and absorb, directing the force into the ground ...as you pointed out.

When pulled, we go forward with the force, using it against our opponent. Consequently, we make it a habit of avoiding pulling so our opponent won't return the favor.

@Futsao: If, as we do, you maintain forward pressure, why would you drop into a low horse and resist a pull, even if you can? When the way is free, go forwards!

Check out the examples in the video below:
Deflecting/evading a push 8:38
Going with and using a pull 8:48

The answer is simple it's up to me what I want to do. There are options to be made..

 

[geezer]

The answer is simple it's up to me what I want to do. There are options to be made..

Sure. Totally your choice. But if you hold fast against a pull, you will be pulling back. I prefer not to pull back. I'd rather maintain forward pressure. That's a core principle of both my Wing Chun and the Escrima I train.

 

[JPinAZ]

That's correct geezer, this is a core principle of all good WC. In WC we don't resist/fight force with force. We don't hold static postures resisting our opponent's pressing forces, no do we try to hold our position rigidly resisting our opponent's pull.
This is covered by Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung, as well as WC's maximum efficiency principles.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Sure. Totally your choice. But if you hold fast against a pull, you will be pulling back. I prefer not to pull back. I'd rather maintain forward pressure. That's a core principle of both my Wing Chun and the Escrima I train.

Not everything is about forward pressure I think wing chuners get to carried away with this. Even forward pressure can be used agaisnt you. I preferr to use a more dynamic approach. You say you using yielding in your wing chun..how can you yield if your always using forward pressure seems like a contradiction. .

 

[geezer]

..how can you yield if your always using forward pressure seems like a contradiction. .

Not a contradiction. You press forward like a spring. If you meet greater force, you bend or compress before it, yielding without ever abandoning your own forward pressure. Then as the opposing pressure abates or is "dissolved", you are free to spring forward. That is Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung in application.

 

[Jake104]

Not everything is about forward pressure I think wing

Yes it is!

Forward pressure/intent doesn't necessarily mean moving forward. It means having an intent that never goes away. It is always there regardless of if you're jamming redirecting or even retreating. In good Martial arts that is.

 

[Jake104]

Not a contradiction. You press forward like a spring. If you meet greater force, you bend or compress before it, yielding without ever abandoning your own forward pressure. Then as the opposing pressure abates or is "dissolved", you are free to spring forward. That is Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung in application.

I agree, but I'll take it a step further. Forward intent is there even before contact. In good MA's

 

[JPinAZ]

Fwd intent/fwd pressure/fwd whatever - while this is about having a fwd nature in the elbow, I look at it as a step further by always looking to have a fwd 'connection' thru the bridge to my opponent's COG - even if the bridge point isn't exactly 'on center' between my opponent and I. This includes times where I must absorb, deflect, redirect, etc, say when operating under 4 gate principles and taking an attack out to the corner of a gate because I wasn't able to deal with the pressure on centerline.
If I don't have that fwd 'presence', I can't link/connect with their COG and cannot reliably react in time to their next move by touch. Without that, one starts relying on tricks and speed to compensate. That's a very low lever of WC imo

Proper WC Structure is a means of supporting this action without giving up my own personal space or needing to rely on too much stength.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Yes it is!

Forward pressure/intent doesn't necessarily mean moving forward. It means having an intent that never goes away. It is always there regardless of if you're jamming redirecting or even retreating. In good Martial arts that is.

FORWARD means forward...that is one direction so your wrong

 

[geezer]

Just for the record: Jake, JP, and I may all live in Arizona, but we come from three different WC backgrounds. So if we all strongly agree on this forward intent thing, we might be on to something . ...Or maybe we've all just been under the hot AZ sun too long? ...it's already October and it was still 106 today.

 

[Danny T]

FORWARD means forward...that is one direction so your wrong

One can yield yet maintain a forward pressure or force. One can even step backward and still have a forward pressure/force.

 

[geezer]

Not everything is about forward pressure.

OK... Jake (Leung Sheung? and DTE), JP (HFY and Moy Yat?), and I (WT- VT and some DTE) represent three separate lineages, ...we all live in Arizona, and we disagree. Forward intent, and it's application, forward pressure are really important to each of us in our WC.

Let's ask Joy (Vajramusdi) what he thinks. He is from yet another lineage (Ho Kam Ming - Augustin Fong) and lives in Arizona too. Also he's the most senior WC practitioner I know. Can this be the topic that unites WC in AZ? Let's find out!


@Futsao: BTW, there are times when I do tug or pull on my opponent, but when I do I try not to retract force back towards myself. Instead it's like using a lap or jut, sometimes with a turn, to cause your opponent to jerk forward without actually withdrawing energy back towards your body. It's easy to demonstrate, but hard to describe. For those who are familiar with the system, WT teaches this early on in the "1st Section of Chi Sau".

Check out how LT creates this effect of jolting his opponent forward without pulling-in or withdrawing energy at about 2:20 -3:30 in the clip below:

Achulee, I tell you the true... It is not pull ...it is pooosh!

Also, notice that after the initial instruction, he also demos on some really big guys. Always demo on the big guys!

 

[JPinAZ]

Actually, it is pretty easy to demonstrate. If you are changing the line/moving the bridge and your elbow collapses and/or you pull them into your 'box'/personal space, then you don't have proper fwd intent - not to mention not much understanding of WC's ideas of space, structure or ranges. WC structure doesn't really exist or have much meaning without FWD intent.

The reason 3 people from separate lineages all agree on this is because this is all basic, common-knowledge WC principle. Without this basic understanding of structure & energetics, one could seriously question if someone is really doing WC at all.

 

[Vajramusti]

OK... Jake (Leung Sheung? and DTE), JP (HFY and Moy Yat?), and I (WT- VT and some DTE) represent three separate lineages, ...we all live in Arizona, and we disagree. Forward intent, and it's application, forward pressure are really important to each of us in our WC.

Let's ask Joy (Vajramusdi) what he thinks. He is from yet another lineage (Ho Kam Ming - Augustin Fong) and lives in Arizona too. Also he's the most senior WC practitioner I know. Can this be the topic that unites WC in AZ? Let's find out!


@Futsao: BTW, there are times when I do tug or pull on my opponent, but when I do I try not to retract force back towards myself. Instead it's like using a lap or jut, sometimes with a turn, to cause your opponent to jerk forward without actually withdrawing energy back towards your body. It's easy to demonstrate, but hard to describe. For those who are familiar with the system, WT teaches this early on in the "1st Section of Chi Sau".

Check out how LT creates this effect of jolting his opponent forward without pulling-in or withdrawing energy at about 2:20 -3:30 in the clip below:

Achulee, I tell you the true... It is not pull ...it is pooosh!

Also, notice that after the initial instruction, he also demos on some really big guys. Always demo on the big guys!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hands, elbows,knees-,eyes coordinated --all point forward towards the target,
WC101

 

[wckf92]

pushing / pulling / yin / yang = power generation.
If I pull while my other arm / leg strikes...it has an amplifying effect.

Personally, I don't do all these "structure tests" that you guys apparently do. I don't see the relevance. But, a good topic of discussion regardless. Carry on gents...

 

[JPinAZ]

I hear ya wck, and agree! But there are different ways to pull. You can pull diagonally or 'across' lines while still maintaining fwd pressure on the bridge w/connection to your opponent without pulling someone into your own personal space and giving up your structure.

 

[wckf92]

I hear ya wck, and agree! But there are different ways to pull. You can pull diagonally or 'across' lines while still maintaining fwd pressure on the bridge w/connection to your opponent without pulling someone into your own personal space and giving up your structure.

Yep...exactly. I agree!!! Sorry for not being clear. WC'er's that pull into their own kill zone are asking for it. Not very smart. I've seen photo's of yip chun and yip ching and some in their line do this. Not advisable!
Thx jp

 

[Danny T]

FORWARD means forward...that is one direction so your wrong

Interesting... Have you never turned with ones punch or push (yield) while dispersing with a taun maintain with the elbow (fwd from your core) and delivering a punch again driven fwd from your core with the elbow? I am very confident in that you have.
Yielding yet with forward pressure with the elbows and with the punch.

Have you never stepped in a rearward direction (angling preferred) and pushed forward while turning? Have you not done this in Chum Kiu and in Bil Jee? If not then you really should revisit and look hard at the turns within them.