Testing a non-student for black belt

[ArmorOfGod]

This is just a general question (not something that I am going through).

What would everyone here do if someone contacted you and said they had been training for a very long time and had all of the requirements down to perfection for the black belt test, but had never gotten any rank.

They come and train with you for a few months and you decide that person could pass the test. Would you test them for the rank and basically skip them over all belts (to black belt), make them start from white belt, or pick an intermediate belt and make them start from there?

AoG

 

[Kacey]

Even with the information you give, there's not really a single answer - it is too dependent on the circumstances. In general, however, I would say no to testing the person directly to black belt if they had no rank from any organization. Among other reasons, I would never put someone in a situation where the very first time they tested was for black belt; to me, it would be unfair, both to the student in question, and to the other students who had come up through the ranks.

Also, if the person had never acquired a rank, and yet had the skill to potentially be recognized as a black belt, s/he would not have come from my association - therefore quite a few small details of technique would likely different - and all of those would have to be amended before a testing could occur. The most fair and efficient method of amending those technical differences would be for the person to move through the ranks in the same sequence, and with the same expectations, as any other student.

Multi-testing or starting at a higher rank than white belt would depend on where the person was, what s/he actually knows compared to our rank requirements, and how quickly the person learns. It is a possibility, but not generally a probability. In that sense, the longer the person had been training, the less likely skipping rank becomes, as it would take that much longer to change any technical details (and therefore habits of performance) that were different from our requirements. However, it is too situational to be able to provide a clear-cut answer. I would have to see the person perform, and perhaps have other instructors watch him/her as well, before I could make an appropriate and fair decision.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I personaly would never do it
first I doubt that they would know what I required and I doubt that they would be fimilar with the forms I teach but in other organisations they might be able to pull the forms, self defence (by whatever name) off the internet or by practicing with those within the system.
NO i would never test someone for black belt as their first test

 

[MBuzzy]

I don't believe that someone should go directly to black belt no matter what their situation. Extremely accelerated path is a different story. If they are that proficient, I would say the first thing would be to bring them up to your standard if they aren't already there.
Next, every school/organization has different requirements, so you would have to fill in the gaps or ensure that every thing is covered.
Last, part of the test for black belt is that you have already taken all of the other tests. Most places include that clause "have fulfilled all requirements for lower belts."

So at the minimum, I would start them at a low belt and possibly skip a few, testing every few months skipping belts if applicable, but being sure to catch all requirements from each test.

When I was much much younger, I studied at two different schools that only had internal rank. They were not affiliated with any larger organization, so the rank I earned there wasn't transferrable. But knowledge is always transferrable.

 

[IWishToLearn]

This is just a general question (not something that I am going through).

What would everyone here do if someone contacted you and said they had been training for a very long time and had all of the requirements down to perfection for the black belt test, but had never gotten any rank.

They come and train with you for a few months and you decide that person could pass the test. Would you test them for the rank and basically skip them over all belts (to black belt), make them start from white belt, or pick an intermediate belt and make them start from there?

AoG

Several questions came to mind:

*Where have you been training for so long?

*Who's black belt requirements?

*What made them contact you?

*What are the conversations regarding the testing for black belt subject like?


Now, for the sake of argument, let's state that I've deemed this person qualified of all of the above.

There is no chance in hell I'd give them any certificate that any of my other students would receive. That'd just be a slap in the face. I'd have to create some other kind of diploma to give them, and it'd have to be worded very specifically.

 

[jdinca]

Nope, not gonna do it. That person will have to jump through several years of hoops before testing for BB. It may not take as many years as it would a brand new student but they would still have to prove themselves over a period of time.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

Nope. Allowing them to test for black belt off the street would be an insult to all the other students who came to class every night. I don't know them, I don't know their background. For all I know, they had a tiff with their instructor and left figuring someone else would give them a black belt.
They can put on a white belt and train in my class if they desire.
Sadly, I'm sure there are Instructors who would.

 

[terryl965]

Absolutely not never no way and did I mention NO!!!!!

There could never be a reason to test someone for a BB until they meet all my requirements, which I'm sure they have no ideal what those was , for if they did they would find another school.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Depends on their background and what they know already. I can't promote someone that has a background in Tae Kwon Do because I am not TKD.

 

[IcemanSK]

To do that is to say, "a BB from my school is purely for sale." Any more than Ohio State University who allow someone who says, "I can pass your tests & write a thesis paper to blow your socks off."

Anyone who thinks coming in off the street & testing for a BB (at my school or anyone else's) would get the same satisfaction out of that belt as if they just went & bought one at Century. In other words, it would mean nothing.

So, my answer is, "no."

 

[jks9199]

Since one of our requirements is 5 years of formal training (I'd have to look at the exact wording; I seem to recall that there's some wiggle room about whether it's in our system or any system)... There's the answer.

But I'd still have to ask who this person's been training with, why they need to come to me, and how they think they learned the black belt requirements.

I'd have to suspect that someone's trying to pull one over on me...

 

[Drac]

If they want one THAT BAD direct them to e-bay where the can buy a rank in almost any discipline....

 

[IWishToLearn]

To do that is to say, "a BB from my school is purely for sale." Any more than Ohio State University who allow someone who says, "I can pass your tests & write a thesis paper to blow your socks off."

Anyone who thinks coming in off the street & testing for a BB (at my school or anyone else's) would get the same satisfaction out of that belt as if they just went & bought one at Century. In other words, it would mean nothing.

So, my answer is, "no."

I was thinking about the reference to scholastic education - so, playing devil's advocate here for a sec...what about all the universities that will allow you to "challenge" a course if you have significant previous experience to warrant it? You prove to the dean of education for that department your background history of experience and they allow you to challenge (take a special test set up by an instructor of the department and the dean) the course and receive the credit for passing the course if you succeed.

Thoughts?

 

[IcemanSK]

I was thinking about the reference to scholastic education - so, playing devil's advocate here for a sec...what about all the universities that will allow you to "challenge" a course if you have significant previous experience to warrant it? You prove to the dean of education for that department your background history of experience and they allow you to challenge (take a special test set up by an instructor of the department and the dean) the course and receive the credit for passing the course if you succeed.

Thoughts?

I see your point. If someone can prove they've already done the work, they can have the credit. I've done this myself in school. However, proving that I've done the work required afidavitts (or phone calls) from folks with whom I'd worked. I've also seen folks who THOUGHT they'd done enough to merit the credit get shot down in their attempt. Also, MA is something one would have to "keep up" in order to prove proficiency in a test. Forms/kata aren't usually things that people who learn a style on their own. Those are often a big part of bb tests.

 

[tellner]

A good friend of mine has been doing Kendo longer than pretty much anyone here has been alive. He learned his stuff from the legendary Mikame-sensei in Hawaii. Old school Kendo of the best sort. He founded the local Kendo club which has been going strong for decades.

He didn't have any rank beyond shodan.

Some years back when he was in Japan he was working out with a very senior kendoka whose name escapes me at the moment. The old gentleman asked if he had any ranking. When he said "no" he was told that now he did, godan. Was the Art being whored? Hardly. Was it inappropriate? Not at all. My friend had the technical knowledge, skill, fighting ability and teaching chops. Was it unfair to other students who had been in the old teacher's dojo? Nobody seemed to think so. It was simply recognition on the part of a senior teacher.

 

[MBuzzy]

I don't think that anyone is saying that this person could walk in and say "I am ready for black belt!" and the instructor will just test them and give them a belt.

It obviously would require a great deal of proof and testing - but if this person can do everything that your students can do....with the same proficiency....why does it matter how long they have trained formally or with you. Obviously they would need the same level of understanding, knowledge, and skill. It is just extremely difficult to get to that level without some type of training.

 

[jks9199]

I don't think that anyone is saying that this person could walk in and say "I am ready for black belt!" and the instructor will just test them and give them a belt.

It obviously would require a great deal of proof and testing - but if this person can do everything that your students can do....with the same proficiency....why does it matter how long they have trained formally or with you. Obviously they would need the same level of understanding, knowledge, and skill. It is just extremely difficult to get to that level without some type of training.

It depends on what a black belt means within your system.

For me to vouch for someone to our association -- they're going to be someone I want to be full member of the association/brotherhood.

If a black belt is just a measure of skill, then if they show the skill -- give them the belt.

But I'd still have to wonder if they weren't trying to set me up...

 

[DArnold]

Good question as it seems to have struck a chord with many!

One:

As the physical aspect of the martial arts makes up about 25% of what the martial arts is all about then based on your one assumption you could say that this person is about 25% ready. Earlier I asked a question on the forum asking people "How their instructor had lead them to learn something without telling them what they were teaching." Very few, if any here, even understood the question. This showed that many here are not instructors but Blog pundents.

By promoting based on time limits and physical ability you come to the situation we have today: many people wearing belts with lots of numbers on them that have a very limited, if any, concept of the mental aspects of a martial arts. I.e. code of honer, ethics, morals, teaching, student instructor relationship...

And as an instructor (and your students represent you) how would you know the first thing about how this student would react in various situations? Courtsey? Integrity? Humility?... when you don't even know them!!!

If the only measure of a Black belt is technique and time then you can start handing out Black belts to older monkeys because I can teach them how to kick and punch also!

Two:

The very nature of the question, as presented, is an indicator of the students lack of ability/understanding. The martial arts are based on a student/instructor relationship that the instructor mentors the student on the journey by showing them the path.

By this question the student here is determining that they are the instructor and know the path ahead of them without an instructor. To this there is one simple answer: You don't need an instructor so go self-promote yourself. (Read Joel Hyams: Zen in the Martial Arts - Empty your cup)

Many times, when I was a younger instructor, I found that great athleats usually make poor martial artist and quite early on. Mostly because I was not good at leading them down a slower path of learning mentally. To clarify, not because of any physical aspect but because usually they are so used to things coming easy for them that when they are faced with a mental challenge they become frustrated easily and quite. So they need a more delicate hand at teaching them how to learn mentally.

Three:

This is no different than the student who tells you that they feel they are not ready to test. This is the same as a child saying, "Hey, I'm not ready for the third grade, so I think I'll stay in the second grade" It is not the child or the students decision on where they are at but the instructor/mentor. Once the student starts deciding when and what they want to do then there is no reason for the instructor/mentor as the student is calling the shots.

Four:

This also shows a lack of understanding of the Eastern phylosophy/style of teaching. The last time any student of mine asked to test they lengthend their testing time by 6 months!

As the peice of paper or piece of cotten is meaningless my question to you is what would be the point, reason, usefulness of promoting them?

In other words, why promote them?

 

[kidswarrior]

A good friend of mine has been doing Kendo longer than pretty much anyone here has been alive. He learned his stuff from the legendary Mikame-sensei in Hawaii. Old school Kendo of the best sort. He founded the local Kendo club which has been going strong for decades.

He didn't have any rank beyond shodan.

Some years back when he was in Japan he was working out with a very senior kendoka whose name escapes me at the moment. The old gentleman asked if he had any ranking. When he said "no" he was told that now he did, godan. Was the Art being whored? Hardly. Was it inappropriate? Not at all. My friend had the technical knowledge, skill, fighting ability and teaching chops. Was it unfair to other students who had been in the old teacher's dojo? Nobody seemed to think so. It was simply recognition on the part of a senior teacher.

Excellent example, tellner. To tie this back to academe, I have a master's degree, but to get a doctorate (which admittedly at this stage of my life/career would be foolish), would have to take several more years of coursework in stuff I don't care about, then jump through committee hoops and write a pathetic excuse for a book that about 5 people would ever read (the dissertation). So, instead I did research on my own in stuff I did care about and wrote two books. Maybe only five people have read them anyway , but at least I spent my time in s.th. I was passionate about. Now if I went to an institution to ask for a doctorate based on the work I'd accomplished, would they give to to me? Of course not. But I coudn't care less. :ultracool The traditional route may have its place, but there are exceptions, as tellner's friend proves.

 

[DArnold]

A good friend of mine has been doing Kendo longer than pretty much anyone here has been alive. He learned his stuff from the legendary Mikame-sensei in Hawaii. Old school Kendo of the best sort. He founded the local Kendo club which has been going strong for decades.

He didn't have any rank beyond shodan.

Some years back when he was in Japan he was working out with a very senior kendoka whose name escapes me at the moment. The old gentleman asked if he had any ranking. When he said "no" he was told that now he did, godan. Was the Art being whored? Hardly. Was it inappropriate? Not at all. My friend had the technical knowledge, skill, fighting ability and teaching chops. Was it unfair to other students who had been in the old teacher's dojo? Nobody seemed to think so. It was simply recognition on the part of a senior teacher.

As those that know much about the martial arts understand, your example and the question posed at the beginning are worlds apart.