Terry Shiavo and the Sanctity of Life...

[Melissa426]

I suppose that an issue close to the crux here is do we trust medical science enough to believe them when they say that this woman is in a "persistent vegetative state"? She apparently has some sort of brain function as reports state that she responds in some manner to stimulation (when spoken to). For all we know she could be conscious "in there" and then the prospect of starving a conscious person to death is somewhat less palatable.

For those with medical training. Is feeding all that is done to support cases like this? I would think that various medications to prevent infections, pneumonia, influenza etc. would have to be administered as well. Is just reducing care to basic life support (food/air) an option?

The vast majority of doctors who have evaluated her have come to the conclusion that she is in a PVS. I have heard that her brain is essentially gone, the only part that works is the part that tells her heart to keep beating and her lungs to keep breathing.

Her parents and family believe because she exhibits some reflexive movement, that she is responding to them and just needs therapy. She probably is getting various medications to prevent infections, etc, but that is not what is keeping her alive. Her tube feedings are. Without them, she will develop severe metabolic imbalances which will cause her heart, lungs, and kidneys to fail and that is what will cause her death.

 

[Tgace]

In other words starvation...

I guess that if she were just bedridden, not moving, making noise, blinking her eyes etc. it would be easier to accept pulling the tube.

 

[Makalakumu]

If it was me in the same situation I would want someone to pull my plug and let me go meet with God.

I 100% agree. I wish we could do it more humanely though. Heck, we put our family pets down easier. Not that I'm saying she needs to be "put down". We can find much more sympathetic and emotional words for this...

Also, the irony that Tgace pointed out is striking...

 

[Ceicei]

Agoinizing? Do you mean her husband? Correct me if i am Misinformed, but isnt he "shacked up" with another woman he has two children with? And doesnt he stand to gain, on top of the large Malpractice settlement he won, another 1.7 MILLION bucks if she is allowed to die?

Ill reserve judgement on the case, but I would think her husbands motives would be suspect.

I read an article on the husband's side of the story from either cnn or reuters a few weeks ago. Basically, what I remember was:

That money from the settlement is gone, paying for the medical services (it isn't cheap). He would not be getting any more money if she dies as that insurance policy, too, were used to pay for the services. However, there were other right-to-life groups, even Shiavo's parents, and a couple of Florida Senators that offered the husband large sums of money if he would just leave the wife alone (drop the feeding tube issue). He refused *all* offers of money, stating he will continue to honor his wife's will.

I will have to do a search to find that article again.

If it was just for money, wouldn't he just take it and go??? Apparently he has other reasons. :idunno:

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

The vast majority of doctors who have evaluated her have come to the conclusion that she is in a PVS. I have heard that her brain is essentially gone, the only part that works is the part that tells her heart to keep beating and her lungs to keep breathing.

I've also heard speculation that she might not be able to feel pain. That's pure speculation though. If her brain is essentially gone, she might not "suffer" when the feeding tubes are removed. But then again, she is not able to tell us. Who is to say that she isn't suffering because of being kept alive?

- Ceicei

 

[AnimEdge]

Thats what makes this such a "toughy" subject, what does she feel? What is she thinking? Is she thinking? For me if i was stuck there, and lets say was esentually numb (couldnt feel pain) but was aware or even if i felt pain, just the fact of knowing(if i could) of what i have lost, what i was, what i could become now, to me well for me i should say, there would be so many "Ifs and What Ifs" that i woudl want them to let me go and have "God*" deal with me but hey thats me, but i agree, you woudl think tehre would be nice ways to go than to 'starve'


(Whatever God/s you woudl like )

 

[AnimEdge]

Hey i found this(unless it has allready bene posted somewhere): Interesting Read i might add:
http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/wuz/2005/03/about_terri_sch.html

 

[Ceicei]

How do I feel about the whole issue? I really do not know. There are so much white-washing and bias going on that it is enough to make a person's head swim.

What I do believe, however, is the guardianship at marriage is to the spouse, not to the parents. This is just a general belief. I do acknowledge that not all marriages are good. As I have mentioned earlier, there is so much going on with this case that I do not feel comfortable making a pro or con about this particular case. What does interest me are any evidence and the bare facts. Unfortunately, people with both sides of the issue try to interpret their views on these evidence or will select only parts of these facts to support their side.

- Ceicei

Hey i found this(unless it has allready bene posted somewhere): Interesting Read i might add:
http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/wuz/2005/03/about_terri_sch.html

AnimEdge,
Interesting article. There are many following comments on that link you gave that were for Terri staying alive.

There was one comment that caught my eye stating the original article didn't provide all the information. I pasted that comment below as the poster provided more links:

- Ceicei

***************************************
I believe you are mistaken on several points.

1. The 4 minutes of video posted online were edited to deliberately misrepresent the entirety of the video:

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/10/Tampabay/Schiavo_tapes__snippe.shtml

"For nearly an hour, her parents and the doctor tell her to open her eyes, close her eyes, look this way, look that way - with little apparent response."

also see

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBQ67CTI6E.html

"Less widely known are four hours of images, taped in summer 2002, of Schiavo's inert stare from her hospice bed."

Did you watch all 4 1/2 hours of videotape?

Most of the affidavits posted on terrisfight.org rely on only those 4 minutes of video for their opinion.

3. The bone scan.

Walker was clear in deposition, here:
http://www.hospicepatients.org/dr-walker-t-schiavo-bone-scan-deposition.txt
that the alleged injuries could easily have been caused by the paramedics and the physical therapy in the year between her collapse and the bone scan.

That is what Dr. Carnahan, her treating physician, who actually ordered the scan thought, per his affidavit.

Walker never bothered to personally examine Terri.

2. Even http://www.terrisfight.org acknowledged that less then $50,000 remains in trust:
http://www.terrisfight.org/myths.html

What's the source for your claim that the husband will receive $1.6 million on her death?

3. The report of Jay Wolfson, guardian ad litem, December 2003, here:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf

is clear Terri received "aggressive" therapy through 1994.

He notes she failed at least 3 "gold standard" modified barium swallow tests during that time.

What's your source for the claim that she can now swallow?

4. The bedsore was only after she temporarily moved to assisted living when the Hospice was being renovated.

It is remarkable that she went 13 years without one, and is a testimony to the care provided by her husband, as Wolfson and Pearse (an earlier GAL, in his report) noted.

Please read Wolfson's report, and see this link for the legal issues involved:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

Here's the CT scan, so you can see how blurry it is:
http://miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/CT%20scan.png

No need for an MRI (actually, you're really referring to an fMRI) to see the extent of the damage.

There's no known way to repair damage that severe.

Posted by: Bill | March 20, 2005 02:41 PM

 

[Ping898]

I didn't bother reading all the other comments, but my 2 cents, I think it is terrible that the lawmakers keep barging into where the courts have already ruled.
My mom has said that she doesn't want to be kept on life support if there is no hope. Now she does have a living will, but I would hate to think there is someone that could stop me from fulfilling her wishes. I know the current rules and laws wouldn't, but who knows what the future will bring. I'd hate to think that cause it went against someone's belief's and convictions that laws would be made that would prevent the final action to take place.
I don't know for sure that she told her husband for sure she didn't want to live in her current state and I know his motives probably aren't entirely pure, but I think the courts have ruled that they believe this is the course of action she wants taken and right or wrong, I think it should be allowed to finish.

 

[stauburn]

In response to Tgace's question. There are actually different levels of withdrawl of life support. Most people are used to the idea of removing people from ventilators but are unsettled when it comes to cases like Terri's. In some cases the feeding will be stopped but the IV fluids and meds will be continued, In others, some families or patients will just stop everything completely and just allow nature to take its course.It usually comes down to the comfort level of that people or person making the decision.


It is sad that in today's society that we treat death as something wrong and unnatural. People get sick, get hurt, get old and die....That's what supposed to happen. Us as martial artists are training for a higher purpose and part of our training teaches us that death happens, it is an inevitable part of life.So take care of yourselves and your families and make your thoughts and wishes known so that no suffers more that need be.

Peace

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm sorry that this woman died. However, she DID die--and the only thing keeping the meat alive is exactly the extraordinary medical technology that some folks feel we cannot trust to judge whether or not this body is brain-dead.

Tens of millions down the tubes on this. On the politics, on the ads, on the lawyers, on Congress screwing around, on security, on the TV coverage.

Meanwhile, of course, millions of Americans kids go to bed hungry, or abused, or without their vaccinations, or without a decent education. But the hell with them--much better to exercise a national prurient interest in other people's business, as well as the current religious sanctimony.

I heard somebody on the radio, other day, complaining that pulling the feeding tube (and incidentally, how many of you out there, a) know what this means, b) have taken care of people with feeding tubes?) was, "playing God."

Looks to me like the Big Guy's already weighed in on this one.

 

[shesulsa]

I'm sorry that this woman died. However, she DID die--and the only thing keeping the meat alive is exactly the extraordinary medical technology that some folks feel we cannot trust to judge whether or not this body is brain-dead.

Before I get flamed on this, please know I believe in the right to die. But I have a question here - are you implying that she is brain-dead? It is my understanding that she is severely brain-damaged, not brain-dead, and she is not on life support systems. Meds, care, the feeding tube and whatever electrical activity is left in her brain and brain stem are what are keeping her alive.

Do you consider there to be a difference between severely brain-damaged and brain-dead?

 

[Tgace]

As far as I know she is only on a feeding tube, not a ventilator. And she does move so there is obviously some brain activity going on. Whether she is "conscious" or not is in question..at least that is what I thought.

 

[michaeledward]

President Bush was awakened at 1:11 AM to sign legislation giving Federal Courts authority to review the Shiavo case. Insert your own 'Theif in the Night' joke here.

Congress enacted a measure aimed at 1 person, claiming that the legislation does not set president for any other cases. (Much the same way the Supreme Court acted in Bush v Gore).

House Majority Leader Delay made the statement that the 'sanctity of life' is more important than the 'sanctity of marriage' - which I guess justifies Newt Gingrich's affairs, Henry Hyde's affairs - but demands a review of the positions on gay marriage. ... Is marriage a sacred thing between a man and a woman, or isn't it?

That our Federal Government become involved now, that the Florida legislature was invovled earlier (and defeated in the courts, by the way), is a sure sign that our Democracy is in its declining days.

Can Barney's appointment to National Security Advisor be far behind from President Caligula? Is Rome burning while Senate Majority Leader Nero fiddles?

It is a sad day in my country.

 

[ginshun]

for gods sake, the women has been laying in a bed, unable to actively comunicate with anyone for 15 years. Let her die already.

 

[Makalakumu]

A Senate Memo was circulated among Republicans in the Senate urging them to get involved in this case for political reasons. The memo lays out the talking points for the arguments and talks about using this case to strengthen their position on the Sanctity of Life. The memo was leaked and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist has said that he doesn't know where it came from.

I will see if I can find the memo...

upnorthkyosa

 

[hardheadjarhead]

A disturbing issue, to be sure.

When I see Terry "smile," I find it hard to endorse her death. It may be a reflex, a faint ghost of her former self. She may not be "at home" at all, in any capacity. But the smile does indeed haunt many of us. It haunts me when I think of pulling the plug. Were I tasked with it, I'm not sure I could do it.

Quality of life is certainly an important issue here. Were it me, I'd want to be done with it and shuffle off this mortal coil...even if it took more of a shove than a shuffle. But it is not me.

The lesson here...and there is one...is for all of us to have a solid "Living Will" that allows, or mandates, that the plug is pulled should we be thus diminished.

Now it ought be noted that Texas will pull the plug if the family can't pay for the support and if there is no discernable hope of recovery. The law allowing this was signed by then Governor George W. Bush:

http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/_/2005/03/schiavo_hudson_and_nikolouzos.php

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3073295

A baby...six month old Sun Hudson...was removed from life support not long ago using this law. It was against his mother's wishes. She had not--in the ten day window provided by the state-- been able to find an institution that would provide for the child.

A disturbing issue, to be sure.


Regards,


Steve

 

[oldnewbie]

A disturbing issue, to be sure.

I agree, it is disturbing the extent that the families on both sides, have gone to get what "they" want.
Here in Tampa, we have had to watch/listen to the goings on for years. It is no longer what "Teri" wants, it is nothing but a family fued.

The other day, the parents were interviewed, and asked IF the "latest" test they wanted to do, showed that there was no brain activity, would they let her "go". They refused to answer the question.

The Husband has been offered, $1 million (recently from Calif. I think)
$3 million (From Mel Gibson I heard), and $10 million (stated by the Husband) to give her to the Parents/ let extra testing happen/ walk away, etc. He has refused.

But isn't that the real point here? Is she there?

The Husband says she is gone, and would not want to live that way.
The Parents say she is there, and MAYBE could be returned.

But, no one wants to find out.

Both sides have Experts that say want they want them to say.

So now it has escalated to Congress and the President.

I say, don't blame Congress and Bush, blame the husband and the Parents.

 

[Melissa426]

This is too bizarre.
I am actually, and this is a rarity, in agreement with McRobertson :uhyeah:

Seriously, feeding tubes are used to provide nourishment... proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, and assorted vitamins and minerals and water. Without tube feedings, her body will start using her fat and protein stores to maintain its functions. That could take weeks to deplete.
What she will die from is the lack of hydration. Will her mouth her dry and parched? No, that can easily be treated with what the Nursing homes refer to as "Mouth Care." Will she feel hunger pains or thirst? It will probably never be known, but if her brain is as damaged as the multitudes of doctors who have evaluated her claim (as opposed to the congressmen who are grandstanding for political gains) and courts have judged, it isn't very likely. In the meanwhile, she is being given drugs to medicate her if there is the possibility of discomfort.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[ginshun]

What ever happened with the deal that Congress was going to sapina her to testify? I had hurd on Friday that they did it, just to do it, thinking that it would at least delay the whole deal. Obviously this was done knowing full well that there was no way she could actaully testify. I didn't pay any attention to news all weekend, anybody else here anything on this?