Terry Shiavo and the Sanctity of Life...

[Ping898]

The lesson here...and there is one...is for all of us to have a solid "Living Will" that allows, or mandates, that the plug is pulled should we be thus diminished.

Last time I checked though, I thought a living Will wasn't legally binding. Thus even if you have one, no garuntee they will pull the plug if your husband/wife/mother/father or whomever is your guardian won't allow it.

And I don't blame the parents and husband for this intrusion into our lives. I blame congress and Bush. They butted into a personal situation where I don't think they belonged. The parents and husband both think they are doing what Terri would have wanted and though things may have gotten perverted along the way, both (I hope) at least started this battle out of love and respect for this woman.

 

[ginshun]

And I don't blame the parents and husband for this intrusion into our lives. I blame congress and Bush. They butted into a personal situation where I don't think they belonged. The parents and husband both think they are doing what Terri would have wanted and though things may have gotten perverted along the way, both (I hope) at least started this battle out of love and respect for this woman.

Ya, but if the family could have come to some sort of decision a long time ago, the courts, congress and Bush would never have been invoved. Its not like they just butted in were they were not wanted, the courts congress and bush were pretty much forced into it. Blame the media for publisizing it maybe.

Who knows where the blame belongs? It seems to me that there is quite a bit of blame to be spread around.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Do I see a difference between complete brain-death (and there is no such thing, really--we're talking about loss of all higher functions that make a person a person) and this? Yes; this is worse.

2. The family came to a decision, about a decade ago. The husband, for reasons that are not yours or mine or some fool's to decide, chose to take his wife off life support. Everything else is meddling--unless somebody actually has more than slander to offer about the husband.

3. The right-wingers have been pushing this sort of nonsense harder and harder for decades. It started under Ed Meese, who promulgated hospital rules that kept anencephalic babies--born without a brain, folks--on ventilators for weeks. The latest version is this crap about, "working through the legal process," which happened years ago. Every single report I've read says that the husband did what he was supposed to do--and the parents, who legally and morally don't get a say, aided and abetted by a pack of nutjobs, have been screwing around for years.

4. If anybody has any evidence--actual evidence, not speculation--indicting the husband, they need to get it to the Miami PD forthwith.

 

[Ray]

Who knows where the blame belongs? It seems to me that there is quite a bit of blame to be spread around.

This must be an important issue to our society, aside from the individual in question. It is generating a lot of discussion - and that must be a good thing.

 

[oldnewbie]

And I don't blame the parents and husband for this intrusion into our lives. I blame congress and Bush. They butted into a personal situation where I don't think they belonged. .......

Congress and Bush were requested to butt in based on appeals from the Family.. not on their on accord..

 

[rmcrobertson]

Legally and morally, it's the spouse's decision, unless there is some over-riding consideration. There wasn't. If Congress gets involved, they're therefore butting in.

This has gone through the State courts for 15 years; there're 21--yes, 21--written opinions. It's already been to the Supreme Court; they refused to hear the case, which means that they believed the lower court had jurisdiction, and there was no reason to review.

This is garbage. It's right-wingers and anti-abortion types interfering in a marriage.

The woman is in a persistent vegatative state. I heard her doctor on the radio today; most of her brain has died, and been replaced by cerebrospinal fluid. It's grotesque to, "keep her alive---" zombiefication, is what it is.

 

[Melissa426]

Congress and Bush were requested to butt in based on appeals from the Family.. not on their on accord..

Appeals from the family which were enhanced by the multi-million $ backing of large religious extreme conservative organizations, who care little about Ms. Schiavo and more about pushing their own agenda.

 

[Kane]

If Terry Shiavo dies, it will be the end of our country morally. However, most people in America support Terry Shiavo to live. All Republicans and even 1/2 the Democrats support her to live. These sick vermin in Congress need to be thrown out by the next election. I don't care if another super liberal democrat takes power. We need Congress members with sanctity of life, that don't support the culture of death.

Republicans are not alone in this. Majority of Democrats are for the life of Shiavo. This goes to show that these minorities for the death of a defenseless woman like Shiavo are souless gouls.

Why is that that horrible husband wants her dead so badly. He is so passionate that it makes you wonder whether he did it. Within no time at all he has a new wife and two kids; it is so obvious why he wants her dead.

rmcrobertson and ginshun, no offense but you two disgust me. I know it is your opinions, but I don't know how you can support her death.

 

[Kane]

Appeals from the family which were enhanced by the multi-million $ backing of large religious extreme conservative organizations, who care little about Ms. Schiavo and more about pushing their own agenda.

Oh yea I'm sure you know everything. That is why they put their jobs on the line to save Ms Schiavo.

 

[michaeledward]

If Terry Shiavo dies, it will be the end of our country morally. However, most people in America support Terry Shiavo to live. All Republicans and even 1/2 the Democrats support her to live.

Back up this statement please.

I believe you exactly the opposite of what the American people think.

If you spend your time listening to 'talk radio' (e.g. Laura Ingraham, Rush Limbaugh) it can be understood why the conclusions you state can be reached. They are however, in accurate.

And yes ... I do have the misfortune of listening to the radio entirely too much ... which is why I know you do too ... "culture of death" is not a phrase that comes to a person who is thinking on their own, but only of those parrotting 'talking points'.

 

[Cryozombie]

I love how many of the same people who say "Kill Her" scream about how wrong the death penalty is.

Here's a concept. You are so outraged about people getting involved, dont. Just leave the topic alone. If everyone would have done that instead of getting involved in heated debate in the first place this probably wouldnt have become the circus that it did.

 

[michaeledward]

I love how many of the same people who say "Kill Her" scream about how wrong the death penalty is.

The death penalty is enacted by the State, which has no business in taking a life.

I am not saying 'Kill Her'.

I am saying that medical decisions are between her and her doctor (strange, where I have argued that before?).

In the event that she is not able to discuss her wishes with her doctor, the decision moves to the next "controlling legal authority", which is her husband.

So much for 'marriage'.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, thanks, "Kane." Hey, here's a question--have you ever taken care of patients in a persistent vegatative state? I have--infants, kids, adults.

This poor woman died fifteen years ago. Her husband, her doctors, made what I believe to be the right decision--and her parents, with growing support from a group of extreme right-wingers, stuck their noses in.

Disgusting? I'll tell you what's disgusting--keeping this poor woman's corpse, "alive," all this time. Poking your nose into other people's private lives and private decisions. Spreading lies about a man--Michael Shiavo--you don't know from Adam, and have no tangible reason whatsoever to believe has done anything wrong.

Not that it really matters, but the polls actually show that by around 70% majorities and up, Americans think that this is nuts--and think that Congress has no business whatsoever fooling around with this decision.

 

[Phoenix44]

Only 2% of Americans believe that the government should decide this type of right-to-die issue. Know who conducted this poll? Fox News.

 

[stauburn]

Kane , how would this be the end of the country morally? This type of situation happens very often in this country. The difference in this case is that Terri's parents took it to court, lost twice and the whole affair is happening in a state where the govenor and the president are related( not intended to rag on the president...).

I would like to challenge you to spend a weekend in Terri's place. This is the challenge to you: Have yourself medically paralyzed, which means medications are given to you to inhibit all of your voluntary and involuntary muscle movements. You will need to be intubated and placed on a ventilator because you won't be able to breathe because you diaphragm isn't working. You mind will be keep completely aware because you will recieve no sedation( morphine, ativan). Giving Terri the benefit of doubt assume that she is completely aware of her situation, you can get a hint of what she is going through....Do you think you can live like that for 15 yrs?

As for a living will, as far as I know the hospitals are not legally obliged to follow them. Doctors will always discuss it with the family members and usually if there is any major disputes between the family members, the doctors seem to perfer to perform too much than too little medical treatment until things can be sorted out. Believe me , I have participated in the resessitation of many patients that had living wills

 

[Cryozombie]

You will need to be intubated and placed on a ventilator because you won't be able to breathe because you diaphragm isn't working. You mind will be keep completely aware because you will recieve no sedation( morphine, ativan).

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but she is not on "Life Support" of any kind, meaning her lungs and heart are functioning on their own... the machines she is on perform functions such as feeding, etc...

Just as a side note, when I signed the papers to take my Mom off of life support, they did an EEG(?) and showed that their was no brain activity... what does Terri's show?

 

[Melissa426]

Oh yea I'm sure you know everything. That is why they put their jobs on the line to save Ms Schiavo.

I don't claim to know everything.
I would like to know who you think put their jobs on the line to save Mrs. Schiavo.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[Melissa426]

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but she is not on "Life Support" of any kind, meaning her lungs and heart are functioning on their own... the machines she is on perform functions such as feeding, etc...

Just as a side note, when I signed the papers to take my Mom off of life support, they did an EEG(?) and showed that their was no brain activity... what does Terri's show?

Technopunk,
Brain death is not the same as persistant vegetative state. I am not a neurologist and can not explain the difference adequately, however.

But I think the whole gist of the argument is that the decision should be left to the doctors and the family. In this case, because there was a familial dispute, the Florida courts had to get involved. They have ruled repeatedly in Mr. Schiavo's favor.

If one of your family members had disputed your right to have your mom taken off life support, stating that they disagreed with the doctors, what would you do? I was part of the decision made by my stepfather and the rest of my family to stop nutritional support on my mother when she was terminally ill, because we knew she would not want to continue in her condition. She was a lot more alert that Ms. Schiavo, but not completely with it.
I realize it is two completely different situations, but you know that it's an incredibly hard decision. Mr. Schiavo believes he is doing what his wife would want, and the courts agree with him. IMHO, the rest of the country should just butt out.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Kane in bold:

If Terry Shiavo dies, it will be the end of our country morally.


I wish people would make up their minds as to WHEN our country died morally.

For you, it shall be this historic moment. Bang. With her death we're dead and corrupt. All those unseemly and sordid things from our country's past bear no weight. The slaughter of innocents in domestic wars, the mistreatment of immigrants, child labor, eugenics, kleptocratic businessmen, organized crime--and I'm just working the nineteenth century here.

Killing children with an air delivered munition is euphemized and dismissed as "collateral damage," but this one act is going to irrevocably cripple the nation's morals? The baby that was taken off of life support in Texas awhile back--against his mother's wishes--didn't do it...but this will?

And all this in spite of the (alleged) fact that most of the country is against her demise? How does that work? All those who oppose her death give up and go home after she dies? They quit their morals and join the ranks of the forsaken? Will you be the exception? Will you be the lone voice crying in the wilderness admonishing us for our sins?

For all the ethical questions this case brings to light, no matter how it breaks it will not be the final death knell of this country's morals. Goodness, if we survived the roasting of 100,000 men, women and children in one fireboming raid over Tokyo, I suspect we can survive this.

The fact that there are people discussing this issue (or the events of March 9, 1945, for that matter) CLEARLY indicates that this country's citizens have a sense of morals...even if we can't agree on what they should be. We are not a nation of sociopaths...even though we have our fair share...and for all our failings as members of a supposedly informed electorate, we at least have the sense of bringing these things to the table.



Regards,


Steve

 

[ginshun]

Ya, "culture of death" is deffinately a term heard pretty much daily now if you listen to Michael Savage, which I will gladly admit that I do. The guy is crazy, but fun to listen too.

I am not sorry for my opinion on this matter either. The woman lays in a bed without the ability to eat or comunicate with anyone. Pretty much all evidence shows that she will be like that for as long as we choose to keep her alive. The husband says that they had discussed this type of situation before she ended up like this and says that her feelings were that she would not want to live like this. I have seen no plausable explanation to believe otherwise. Its obviously not money, as he has been offerd millions of dollars to let her live. All I have seen is cosperousy theories on his motives. Why can people not accept that maybe his motive is that he is doing it because that is what she would have wanted?

Personally I know I would not want to be kept alive were I in her situation, and I haven't seen any credible evidence that she felt any different when she was able to make the decision.


By the way, I have be grouped together with and agree with rmcrobertson, and hence the world is soon coming to an end. It was nice knowing you guys.