terrorism in norway

[Tez3]

Hello friends

I have added a small album of pictures taken in Oslo today. There are without doubt better images in the news, but you might find some of them interesting.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=197




I am leaving to visit realtives in the country tomorrow and won`t be on the net for a while. You all take care and remember hate is not the answer.

Thank you for the photos, Norway and the UK especially the north, have much in common and a very long history together, in our local town Richmond the flags were at half mast as they were I know in Newcastle a city that's almost half Norwegian. Shetland too has been in mourning with you as well as the Orkneys.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14269118

Take care.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...s-The-killing-will-not-stop-until-we-stop-it/




...



It took 45 minutes for cops with guns to show up. In this day and age it's my opinion that these European police agencies really need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed police officers.

You do know that European police are armed? Only the UK police aren't routinely. I think the writer of the article has misunderstood a fair bit or it hasn't been reported properly.

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/25/horrific-details-continue-to-emerge/

Police in Norway are generally unarmed and Berntsen, who had taken on the extra job as a private security guard and was not in police service on Utøya, was unarmed as well. But his son said he attempted to stop the gunman when he started firing, only to be shot and killed himself.

This is just one article. There are numerous sources saying that Police in Norway are unarmed. They have armed "response teams".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_by_country

The Norwegian national police force (Norwegian: Politiet) is subordinate to the Ministry of Justice and Police. The Politiet is divided into 27 regional police departments and seven nation-wide special departments. In total the force has about 11.000 employees, with the Oslo police precinct, as the largest, accounting for 2300.
Officers of Politiet usually do not carry firearms, making the force one of the few unarmed police organizations in the world. They are instead armed with telescopic batons and pepper spray.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]

 

[Tez3]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/25/horrific-details-continue-to-emerge/



This is just one article. There are numerous sources saying that Police in Norway are unarmed. They have armed "response teams".

You said Europe, it's more than one country you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Police_Service

"Norwegian police do not carry firearms on a daily basis; they keep them locked down in the patrol cars, and if need arises they have to get permission by the police commissioner or someone authorized by him or her. If there is no time to contact a superior, a police officer may arm himself and anyone under his command. From 1994 to 2004 the Norwegian police fired approximately 79 shots; 48 of these were fired during the Nokas Robbery in 2004.
As a part of the anti-terror work after the September 11, 2001 attacks, every regional area has its own mobile unit which is specially trained to handle these types of missions"

 

[Archangel M]

I said that European police agencies need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed officers, there are a few agencies that don't arm their cops. They should reconsider IMO. The only thing that can be done in these mass killing situations is for any nearby officer to arm and engage. NOT wait an hour for cops who are allowed guns to show up. It's a lesson we coppers here learned from Columbine. We now frequently train in what we call "active shooter" response. Waiting for a tactical unit to show up is last decades strategy.

 

[elder999]

...



It took 45 minutes for cops with guns to show up. In this day and age it's my opinion that these European police agencies really need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed police officers.

Dude, all the cops here are armed, and there are lots of places-like, remote places where you'd have, I dunno, a camp?- where expected emergency response has a 45 minute minimum.

 

[Tez3]

I said that European police agencies need to reconsider the wisdom of unarmed officers, there are a few agencies that don't arm their cops. They should reconsider IMO. The only thing that can be done in these mass killing situations is for any nearby officer to arm and engage. NOT wait an hour for cops who are allowed guns to show up. It's a lesson we coppers here learned from Columbine. We now frequently train in what we call "active shooter" response. Waiting for a tactical unit to show up is last decades strategy.

Which countries in Europe aren't armed then?


The Norwegian police explanation of the time taken. I believe the gunman was shooting for a long time before the alarm was raised not afterwards.
http://www.newsmania.com/norwegian-police-to-give-explanation-regarding-utoeya-island-attack-2150/

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/25/norway-attack-victim-saved-son

Trond Berntsen was working as an off-duty police officer on Utøya when Anders Behring Breivik arrived at the shore. Unarmed and unaware of the horror that was about to be unleashed on the island, Berntsen succeeded in protecting his 10-year-old son but could do nothing to save himself. The father-of-two became one of Breivik's first victims when he was shot dead within minutes.

And if you actually read the article I posted instead of the blurbs, you will see that the author makes a few points. One about the wisdom of having to wait 45 minutes for an "armed response team" to arrive (here the first 1-3 cops on location would have been expected to commandeer a boat and GO) and TWO the wisdom of disarming off duty police officers. This man would have had a far greater chance of stopping this (or slowing it down) if he had been armed.

 

[Archangel M]

Which countries in Europe aren't armed then?


The Norwegian police explanation of the time taken. I believe the gunman was shooting for a long time before the alarm was raised not afterwards.
http://www.newsmania.com/norwegian-police-to-give-explanation-regarding-utoeya-island-attack-2150/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/24/oslo-terror-attacks-leaky-police-boat_n_907986.html

The shooter, 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik, went about his deadly work undisturbed by police for an hour after the first reports of gunfire, other police officials said Sunday, revising a previous estimate of almost 90 minutes.
Sissel Hammer, the police chief in Hoenefoss, said she understood why critics "think it took too long for the police to come" but said they had moved as quickly as possible.

"I ask for understanding of the fact that it takes time to send out a special armed force," Hammer said in a statement.

Police sources said there had been much internal police debate over whether the first responders should have approached the island without waiting for the Oslo force.

Police released a timeline showing that the Hoenefoss police station first received reports of a shooting at 5:27 p.m. (11:27 a.m. EDT). Local officers arrived at a pier across the water from the island at 5:52 p.m., but had to "wait for a suitable boat."

From 6:09 p.m., when the specially equipped tactical police officers from Oslo arrived at the pier, it took 16 minutes for them to arrive on Utoeya, and only another two minutes before the gunman surrendered without resistance, the police said.

You CANNOT waste time assembling a "special armed force" to respond to these situations! This will be Norways "Columbine" in terms of police tactics IMO. Unfortunately it cost them lives of an order of magnitude greater than Columbine or Virginia Tech.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/25/norway-attack-victim-saved-son



And if you actually read the article I posted instead of the blurbs, you will see that the author makes a few points. One about the wisdom of having to wait 45 minutes for an "armed response team" to arrive (here the first 1-3 cops on location would have been expected to commandeer a boat and GO) and TWO the wisdom of disarming off duty police officers. This man would have had a far greater chance of stopping this (or slowing it down) if he had been armed.

I did read it, don't assume I didn't. I think you and the writer of the article lack the local knowledge needed to make a judgement call, you are judging things by American ways, habits and standards and not non American. I'ts easy for you to criticise sat thousands of miles away especially if you have a pro guns agenda you wish to push. The Norwegians, like ourselves, like all non Americans will do things as we wish and no amount of second guessing by the American gun lobby will change that. You don't know that if even armed to the teeth this off duty policeman would have made any difference at all. The killer had planned this for at least a decade. To lay blame where you don't know it lies is unwise. I think you will find that the vast majority of the deaths were before the alarm was raised.

 

[Archangel M]

Gun lobby??? Americans telling Europeans what to do??? WTF? Get a grip.

This is a cop talking tactics and lessons learned by our own tragedy. I thought you were LE of a sort. If you don't learn from tragedy you are doomed to repeat it. Putting on blinders and saying "everybody did all they could".."there was nothing else that could be done" is ********. You either buck up and fix what you screwed up or you keep walking down the primrose path. We (LEO's) here in the US were the harshest critics of the tactics used at Columbine and rightly so. We have the responsibility of NOT screwing up like THAT again.

As to what that off-duty officer could have done??? He could have done a HELL of a lot. Like these off-duty LEO's did.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,251864,00.html

http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/crime/Off-duty-cop-stops-massacre-at-store

Even when off-duty LEO's dont kill the shooters their actions focus the shooters attention on the Cop and not on the unarmed people around him. Most active shooters either kill themselves or (like this guy) surrender when faced with other people with guns or with return fire.

But that point is moot because he was unarmed. Don't go trying to turn this into "American wants Euro citizens running around armed". Im saying that police officers who are not armed are close to useless when THIS happens.

 

[Tez3]

Gun lobby??? Americans telling Europeans what to do??? WTF? Get a grip.

This is a cop talking tactics and lessons learned by our own tragedy. I thought you were LE of a sort. If you don't learn from tragedy you are doomed to repeat it. Putting on blinders and saying "everybody did all they could".."there was nothing else that could be done" is ********. You either buck up and fix what you screwed up or you keep walking down the primrose path. We (LEO's) here in the US were the harshest critics of the tactics used at Columbine and rightly so. We have the responsibility of NOT screwing up like THAT again.

As to what that off-duty officer could have done??? He could have done a HELL of a lot. Like these off-duty LEO's did.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,251864,00.html

http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/crime/Off-duty-cop-stops-massacre-at-store

Even when off-duty LEO's dont kill the shooters their actions focus the shooters attention on the Cop and not on the unarmed people around him. Most active shooters either kill themselves or (like this guy) surrender when faced with other people with guns or with return fire.

But that point is moot because he was unarmed. Don't go trying to turn this into "American wants Euro citizens running around armed". Im saying that police officers who are not armed are close to useless when THIS happens.

You can only learn from a situation when you know what the facts are, we don't know what they are in this case, you are speculating.

You are also, ref your post telling Europeans it's time they were armed, telling us what to do, don't get a grip, loosen up and wait for the facts.

Wow guns really get you excited don't they, they also make you attack the poster and not the post. Interesting.

 

[CanuckMA]

You CANNOT waste time assembling a "special armed force" to respond to these situations! This will be Norways "Columbine" in terms of police tactics IMO. Unfortunately it cost them lives of an order of magnitude greater than Columbine or Virginia Tech.

I take that more to mean a force like a SWAT team.

Even in the US, if there is a report of an active shooter in a remote place with a lot of civilians, would your average beat cop go in or wait for SWAT?

 

[Archangel M]

It depends on the training and policy of the dept in question, but on the whole most US LE Agencies are embracing the "Active Shooter Response". Ideally you assemble 4 cops, but if its "on" when you arrive, you either go in alone or with as many cops as reasonably possible. The "cutting edge" in active shooter response is something being called "tactical swarming". Small groups of 2-4 cops respond as fast as they can assemble ad hoc. i.e you and I arrive...we go in. The next two go in (preferably from another direction) when they arrive, and so on.

During our annual active shooter training, our dept trainer always says. "Yeah going in alone sucks. It will be a bad day to be a cop, but that is what they pay us for. Ask yourself this..if that was YOUR kid in there and you were a cop would you wait? What if it was MY kid? Well they are all somebodies loved ones and they will all look to YOU to do something. If you don't think you can do it, find another job. Its the only way to stop the killing."

Of course that doesn't mean you just run in guns a blazin. There are tactics you use to locate, close with and engage these shooters. It's a gamble, but this tragedy in Norway is the classic result of "Waiting for SWAT" during an active shooter situation.

Waiting for SWAT while someone is actively killing went the way of the dinosaur in the late 90's. The "timeline of death" is one person dead every 30 seconds a cop waits (on the average). You want the BG attention on YOU (the cops) instead of THEM (the victims). Statistically most BG's kill themselves or surrender when faced with armed response. Those who don't typically bunker down and focus on the police. Saving other peoples lives. It's the only way. Otherwise all you have is a SWAT team arriving to pick up dead bodies.

Heres another example of a lone off-duty (with a gun) stopping a massacre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpLUT_p7syY&feature=related

 

[Mark Jordan]

There is never a good reason to kill innocent people. Terrorism is defined as the use of violence against civilians in order to influence policy. So, it is never justified and getting innocent people involved is inexcusable.

My sincere prayers to all the victims and their families.

 

[Buka]

Is it true that the longest prison sentence this monster can serve is 21 years?

 

[Blade96]

*person attacks*

AYEEE, ITS THE MUSLIMS, RUN AWAAAY!

that's what i thought when i saw this more people waiting to pounce on a muslim like a cheetah on a rabbit.

as i said look up mark stroman and the muslim who fought for his life cause his religion said he should forgive him.

Then come back and say muslims are bloodthirsty people.

 

[MA-Caver]

Is it true that the longest prison sentence this monster can serve is 21 years?

I was surprised and disgusted as well. If it happened here in the states he'd be headed for a death penalty for sure... even if a state doesn't have it anymore I'm sure they'd repeal it just for this particular lower than pond scum.

At least the judge refused two of his requests, an open hearing so he could spout out his rant in hopes to encourage more like him to come out of the woodwork and refusal to let him wear a "uniform" which likewise be an attempt to get more like him out of the woodworks.
As far as I know Norway and it's scandianvian neighbors are among the most peaceful people on the planet. I find it horrible that such violence of that magnatude tore their lives asunder.
One wonders at the changes this horrific act will effect upon the country, if any.
At least the death toll was corrected but it's still an appalling number, especially by just ONE guy.
Read that he used illegal dum-dum bullets which impact and shatter inside the body creating more damage than an average round. How horrible it must've been for the children that were hit.

If Norway doesn't have a death penalty then they should for this guy. They should just turn him over to the mob instead of sneaking him in and out of backdoors and false cars. He should be tied to an open horse-drawn wagon enroute to the gallows or whipping post, and everyone gets a turn at him.
Wouldn't be much left by the end of it that's for sure.

My heart is still hurting from the scope and horror of that attack.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Under special circumstances, a prisoner can be jailed indefinitely.

I kinda think that’s going to happen.

 

[billc]

A developing story on the Drudge site:

Police in Norway must get authorization from their chief to gain
access to firearm... Developing...