Telling the truth to our Students

[bcbernam777]

As one who has recently started to teach martial arts I had a curious conversation during training with one of my students, he was asking me questions about why some people seem to get black belts quickly, and why some people cant fight well despite the fact that you have your black belt, he also asked me if their was any one better than me at Wing Chun :uhyeah:

I laid out for him the world of McDojo's, lineage wars, and I told him that yes there are people out there that where better at Wing Chun than I was. It was a refreshing, and in a sense liberating conversation, I didn't have to try to prove myself to be some great master, or some unbeatable mastermind. It was also refreshing to outline for him that there are a lot of quick gradings wich destroy the quality of many martial arts.

I think in my opinion that we need to be real with our students and tell them as it is, instead of telling them what we think they want to hear, which goes against the grain of the new contemporary way of teaching, i.e. the marketing idiom "tell them what they want to hear". What are your thoughts??

 

[MJS]

As one who has recently started to teach martial arts I had a curious conversation during training with one of my students, he was asking me questions about why some people seem to get black belts quickly, and why some people cant fight well despite the fact that you have your black belt, he also asked me if their was any one better than me at Wing Chun :uhyeah:

I laid out for him the world of McDojo's, lineage wars, and I told him that yes there are people out there that where better at Wing Chun than I was. It was a refreshing, and in a sense liberating conversation, I didn't have to try to prove myself to be some great master, or some unbeatable mastermind. It was also refreshing to outline for him that there are a lot of quick gradings wich destroy the quality of many martial arts.

I think in my opinion that we need to be real with our students and tell them as it is, instead of telling them what we think they want to hear, which goes against the grain of the new contemporary way of teaching, i.e. the marketing idiom "tell them what they want to hear". What are your thoughts??

I agree. IMO, I'd rather be honest with someone, rather than try to 'sugarcoat' something, and end up giving the person a false sense about something. Sadly, many times people are concerned with the 'quantity' of students rather than the 'quality'. Yes, in many cases, the school is the bread and butter for the owner as far as cash flow goes. I just can't see having 150 below average students, all walking around with the impression that they are actually good martial artists. Many belt factories are in operation, giving out belts to people that really do not deserve to be wearing that rank. Its the skill and knowledge that you possess that will aid you, not the belt around your waist.

Mike

 

[Navarre]

I think it goes without saying that we should be honest. ... although, if "it goes without saying" then why did I just say it? lol

I was trained to believe that we are all, white belt to Grandmaster, an ambassador for the martial arts at all times. Even if someone isn't aware of our involvement in martial arts we should conduct ourselves in such a way that we represent all that The Art is about. This, naturally, included honesty.

I have been an instructor for many years and have never once thought I might need to conceal a truth from my students. This includes any truth about my own level of expertise.

First, no matter of talking will hide what I am or am not capable of but, more to the point, why would I want to? To do so is only to satisfy my own ego and it does a disservice to my student.

Like a father, I would hope that my students might surpass my own ability. If they do then I feel they have been able to incorporate all that I have had to teach them and then have "taken it to the next level". If they in turn train others in the same way then I have helped advance The Art as a whole; an admirable goal.

 

[searcher]

Always be honest with your students and yourself. If you don't lay it out there for them in the future they will find out the facts and begin to question you and where you stand. If they see that what you said was honest they will have more respect for you and what you say.

 

[terryl965]

True Enlightment can only come to a true matial Artist when he or she can be 100% truthful to there students and everybody else in life. Every school needs money to stay open but to compremize your intigity for cash is just old fashion whoring to me anyway.

I'm glad to see there are those that believe in the old school of thought .

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Navarre]

to compremize your intigity for cash is just old fashion whoring to me anyway.

I'm glad to see there are those that believe in the old school of thought .

Terry Lee Stoker

I definitely believe in the old school of thought.

...Although I don't consider true "old fashion whoring" to be a dishonorable profession either. :wink:

 

[Flying Crane]

As one who has recently started to teach martial arts I had a curious conversation during training with one of my students, he was asking me questions about why some people seem to get black belts quickly, and why some people cant fight well despite the fact that you have your black belt, he also asked me if their was any one better than me at Wing Chun :uhyeah:

I laid out for him the world of McDojo's, lineage wars, and I told him that yes there are people out there that where better at Wing Chun than I was. It was a refreshing, and in a sense liberating conversation, I didn't have to try to prove myself to be some great master, or some unbeatable mastermind. It was also refreshing to outline for him that there are a lot of quick gradings wich destroy the quality of many martial arts.

I think in my opinion that we need to be real with our students and tell them as it is, instead of telling them what we think they want to hear, which goes against the grain of the new contemporary way of teaching, i.e. the marketing idiom "tell them what they want to hear". What are your thoughts??

right on, right on, right on, right on!!!

 

[Andrew Green]

People don't want truth.

They want to hear that they will be an internationally recognized black belt, so deadly they have to register there hands as weapons.

They want to hear that they will be able to knock out 250 pound bikers with a flick of there wrist.

They want to hear that they will find inner peace and harmony.

They want to hear that they come from a direct lineage back to a little asian man, who lived to be 120 and was still beating up bullies 10 at a time.

They want to hear that they can become jedi... well not "jedi" as that is a geeky word, but the want to use the force... err... "chi"

They want to hear that no one will ever take them down, and if that mean football player that picked on them tries to tackle them, they will be able to KO him in one shoot before he even gets close.

Truth, who sells things with truth? Everything is sensationalized in advertising and sales, being honest is scary to many people

 

[shesulsa]

Kudos - I'll bet you find your teaching path enlightening.

 

[FearlessFreep]

People don't want truth.

They want to hear that they...

I think people want to hear that because people want to *be* that. It's instructors being less than honest that makes people think that is the truth.

I think it's natural for someone to say "I want to be a black belt in a year". A dishonest instructor will say "sure, pay me the moeny and let's go". An honest instructor will say "ain't gonna happen and here is why..." Hard to really fault the guy who asked the question who didn't know any better.

I think people *want* the truth but, through lack of experience, they don't know how to recognize the truth so they hope their fantasies can be truth and it's up to those who know better to help them find the difference between fantasy and reality

 

[arnisador]

People don't want truth.

Agreed. But of course, it's still the right thing to do to give them the truth.

But, once can acknowledge the truth without disillusioning them. One can be honest without focusing on the negative.

 

[theletch1]

Here's a students perspective on the situation...The first man that I ever studied with was exactly the opposite of what you've all been talking about here. It didn't take long for me to figure out that he was simply an arrogant, egotistical blow hard. Yes, he had some skill and did, indeed, earn his black belt. That black belt was his ticket to being king in his own little kingdom. I left that studio and have never looked back.

The man that I call Sensei now told me the first time that I spoke to him that if I wasn't willing to invest 5 to 7 years in the art that I'd never reach black belt. When a student comments that they hope to reach his level of skill he is quick to point out that he is still hoping to one day attain the level of his instructor. This humble man, who still amazes me with his abilities, has never given me a hint of ego, never promoted a student that I couldn't say was obviously ready from what I could see and if the first in the dojo to admit that our art takes a long time to become proficient with and even then won't make you super man. From this student to you all as instructors, I say this...Some of us really do want the truth. We don't care if your the best in the world just be competent and as long as I'm learning I want to see that you haven't stopped learning either.

 

[Navarre]

Very, very well said, Jeff. I couldn't agree more. If you aren't seeking the truth then you aren't ready for The Art.

 

[swiftpete]

When my friend and i started training in ninjutsu, my instructor told us that it would probably be about 10 yrs before he awarded black belts, if we trained consistently. He doesn't charge for belts or training, other than the money it costs the class to hire the hall we train in and at least i know that anything i earn beltwise is given because of merit not money.

I'm not there yet but now realise after about 6 yrs of training that black belt is far from the be all and end all of training anyway, just shows you're getting the hang of it really.

I'd rather have it the way it is for us though than a bb in 3 yrs or less like some places give for sure. I mean when you think about it, why do people get awarded black belts anyway? most of it is to make you feel like you're getting somewhere and have achieved something, when it's all about what's in your own head at the end of the day. If you really feel you've earned it then you're bound to feel better than if you get it and feel you got it too quickly.

But i do think arts like systema/thai boxing that don't have belts are cool, if you're good in one of those arts, then you're good and that's all there is to it really!

 

[FearlessFreep]

I'm not there yet but now realise after about 6 yrs of training that black belt is far from the be all and end all of training anyway, just shows you're getting the hang of it really.

I've come to view a black belt like a college degree. Takes a lot of work to get one and means you know what you are doing. A guy with a degree knows a lot more than someone without one, but that it also means you know all the basics of your craft and now you can start really exploring it and developing.

 

[Navarre]

I was once considering offering my classes free of charge and without belt ranking. After some thinking and probing I realized that most people in this country only feel that something is worthwhile if they have to pay for it.

We are so indoctrinated into our materialistic lifestyle that we equate quality with price. Despite knowing better, I'm sure we occasionally look at the $130 pair of Nikes versus the $65 pair and think there must be something better about the higher priced ones.

Belt ranking is much the same way. Most karate schools expanded from a white/yellow/green/brown/black system to include fuschia/chartruese/indigo/vermillion and just about every shade in between. Why?

Well, for one, schools made money off of the belt test so more tests equaled more profit. But also, we reward-focused Americans needed that brass ring, that sign of "achievement".

Most serious practitioners eventually realize the truth but the class fee/belt rank system remains. Most people off the street who found a class for free and that offered no rankings would believe it to be a "hobby" class with no properly credentialed instructor.

That's not how it should work but I think that's the reality of it. There are exceptions, as always.

 

[arnisador]

This has been discussed here before...you really do need to charge something or people won't appreciate it. It's sad, but not unique to the martial arts.

 

[Navarre]

oops, sorry Arnisador. Didn't mean to flog a deceased equine. I was just responding to swiftpete's post.

 

[bcbernam777]

People don't want truth.

They want to hear that they...

I think people want to hear that because people want to *be* that. It's instructors being less than honest that makes people think that is the truth.

I think it's natural for someone to say "I want to be a black belt in a year". A dishonest instructor will say "sure, pay me the moeny and let's go". An honest instructor will say "ain't gonna happen and here is why..." Hard to really fault the guy who asked the question who didn't know any better.

I think people *want* the truth but, through lack of experience, they don't know how to recognize the truth so they hope their fantasies can be truth and it's up to those who know better to help them find the difference between fantasy and reality

True, I agree with that although I think there are some students who may be more into the glory than the passion if you know what I mean. Now in saying that I am not blaming the students here, as I think Roosavelt said "the buck stops with me", I blame the teachers, although its good to hear that the Mcdojo virus hasn't spread everywhere. Also, its good to hear of students who are on the level, as for money, what we charge is not what I would consider cheap or expensive, it is actually cheaper than some WC studios, however we still charge a higher than normal fee because we believe in the quality of our MA and we realise that by not flipping burgers MA style wont bring us a lot of students, infact we will probaly be able to attract less students than others (I hope not), what we do not do is charge for gradings and we try to include as many things as possible i.e. Uniforms, DVDs etc for free, because we genuinly want our students to flourish and grow in the chosen art.

 

[arnisador]

oops, sorry Arnisador. Didn't mean to flog a deceased equine. I was just responding to swiftpete's post.

No no, I didn't mean to chastise--just to indicate that a search would turn up more thoughts on this!