students declining rank

[Thems Fighting Words]

If students belong to a larger organization and train with more than one teacher, the belt rank would allow other teachers to know at what level the student was. So I think declining rank could get confusing. Especially if there are classes that are specifically tailored to certain ranks (ie beginners, intermediates, seniors etc).

 

[Twin Fist]

if one of my students declined a promotion from me?

buh bye

 

[Ironcrane]

Perhaps present the belts as a mark of acomplishment rather then rank? Don't know if that would make any difference.

 

[jarrod]

i usually don't bother to repeat myself on a single thread, but i want to state one more time that it is not an issue of sandbagging; of the two students one doesn't compete & the other only competes in mma. i just want to make it clear that i would not tolerate sandbagging at my school, as previously mentioned.

jf

 

[Joab]

When I tested for yellow belt in Krav Maga I didn't think I was ready but passed anyway. The teacher promoted everyone in the class even if the technique was only 70% accurate. I rarely wore the belt in class, and one student thought I should because I worked hard for it. I worked a lot harder in Wing Chun, and I never even tested.

But all of that seems irrevalent, since the motivation for your students seems to be financial. If they can't afford it they can't afford it. Money is tight right now.

 

[Twin Fist]

cant afford a belt test? how much do they cost?

 

[jarrod]

i think the green belt is $20, plus a $35 annual membership fee. that is a lot for some folks right now.

jf

 

[harlan]

Here is the conundrum: MAists understand the 'value' of rank is relative...but 'outsiders' have no other measure of competance. Personally, I don't train in a situation that addresses rank. I just train. Last year, I had the offer to 'rank', and basically let it pass. I didn't see any sense in it. Fast forward 6 months, and the idea has been broached that I might want to consider teaching on a basic level. More of a case of finding folks to train with, and sharing basics. But still, putting a toe into new waters and testing out the idea of 'teaching'.

The first question I get from outsiders is: 'are you a professional', 'are you certified', 'well...then...what rank are you?'

 

[dancingalone]

I suppose it depends on the situation. I agree if you are a full student of someone, you should take whatever rank they offer and be grateful for it, since they are honoring you to begin with.

What about part time student status though? I work out frequently with a group of open-minded martial artists from a variety of styles and systems. One of my friends is very experienced in an eclectic jujutsu style, and I probably learn more from him that the other way around. He's offered to rank me in his system. Should I accept, given that I already train in a primary style with a teacher I have been committed to for 18 years? I already hold a sandan and a nidan in two striking systems, and I've never been much of a belt-chaser.

 

[harlan]

And then again...there is 'the imposter syndrome'. I recall being in college, and trying to explain to my (female) professor the nebulous reasons why I couldn't push forward on my paper. 'I feel like...a fraud.'

She sat me right down and we discussed something I'd never heard about, and that academic women had plenty of...hidden insecurities. Perhaps the refusal to rank disguises this in some?

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, it's been a LONG time since I trained a style that had belt ranks but.... They CHARGE for ranks now!!!!! The monthly fee isn't enough...what the hell is that about. Congratulations you have worked hard, trained hard, made your sensei proud and passed the test now pay me $20 bucks so I can give you the rank??? No money...no rank...... And some are upset because a student refused a rank....give me a freakin break

Is it just me or is this more about money than martial arts

I am a TCMA guy, no ranks, and damn happy about it

 

[Joab]

What is TCMA?

 

[Xue Sheng]

What is TCMA?

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts

but the non TCMA CMA I trained (Sanda) did not have belt ranks either

 

[harlan]

Question for Xue Sheng: there is no ranking whatsoever in your system? How is one 'recognized' then, in order to be publicly acknowedged and allowed to teach?

OK, it's been a LONG time since I trained a style that had belt ranks but.... They CHARGE for ranks now!!!!! The monthly fee isn't enough...what the hell is that about. Congratulations you have worked hard, trained hard, made your sensei proud and passed the test now pay me $20 bucks so I can give you the rank??? No money...no rank...... And some are upset because a student refused a rank....give me a freakin break

Is it just me or is this more about money than martial arts

I am a TCMA guy, no ranks, and damn happy about it

 

[Joab]

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts

but the non TCMA CMA I trained (Sanda) did not have belt ranks either

Is that the na,e of the system, TCMA? Sounds kind of generic. At any rate, thanks for your response.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Question for Xue Sheng: there is no ranking whatsoever in your system? How is one 'recognized' then, in order to be publicly acknowedged and allowed to teach?

My Yang Sifu's Sifu (Tung Ying Chieh) gave him permission and he could not care less who recognizes him at all other than his Sifu and his Sifu’s family and the others that trained with him. Lineage matters in TCMA more than organizations and belts (Chen Changxing > Yang Luchan > Yang Jainhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > My Sifu > Me) and after that it is how much of a student your Sifu feels you are and how hard you train.

I have also trained with Chen Zhenglei and he has NO rank form the Chen family but is considered a top Taiji Sifu by the family and those that train taiji. He was give rank by the duan system but then that is from the Chinese government not anyone that actually has much to do with martial arts. The man that was my Wing Chun Sifu is a student of Ip Ching and recognized as a student of Ip Ching and allowed to teach per Ip Ching and that is all he cares about and he has no belt rank.

Is that the na,e of the system, TCMA? Sounds kind of generic. At any rate, thanks for your response.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "na,e" thing... if it helps...Traditional Martial Arts that have thier origin in China

Here is a partial list

I trained Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Wing Chun, and Sanda. No belt ranks no pay me for a test either

I use to, many years ago train Jujutsu and TKD...both have ranks and I got some and there was no charge for a rank or a test for a rank but that was a long long time ago

 

[Live True]

I actually tried to decline a recent rank, because I did not feel deserving, and there was NO disrespect intended or taken from my sensei.

We are a very small group, and been going through some serious growing pains as well as personal issues that have limited regular practice. For example, during this time, we lost our training venue and had to find a new place to train. That said, simply having everyone show up and test at our new venue was an accomplishment. Our sensei, looking at the circumstances and our testing, believed we each had learned enough to advance one step (not a full rank).

I discussed this privately with one of the upper ranked students, who was also one of the judges at the test and one of our regular teachers. I told her that I did not think my performance was worthy of any advancement, because I had maintained skills, but not advanced. She disagreed and pointed out several new things I had learned and improvements on my technique. She did, however, agree that my technique would not normally be worthy of advancement. But, she also advised me that perhaps my sensei saw my dedication (I trained into 8th month of pregnancy, although much modified), spirit, and determination along with my advancement in knowledge and skill earned me a rank that I would "grow into" quickly enough.

So, I let my sensei know that while I did not feel deserving of the rank, I would do my best to honor it and be worthy of it and advancement at our next testing. I still do not think I was worthy of the rank awarded, at the time I was given the rank, but it has made me work harder to feel worthy of it.

So, I would offer that declining rank is not always a matter of disrepect or "I know better". For me, rank is not to impress anyone else, it's an internal measure of how far I've come and the honour given to me by my instructor and peers. I believe that declining rank should be looked at on a case by case basis. Sometimes, circumstances (be they financial or otherwise) may call for it. I also think this is something to be discussed privately between student and teacher.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I dodged my black belt for a long time because having a "black belt" these days is so meaningless. I just didnt want to be looked at like all the other pseudo black belts out there.