Maybe that's why MMA rules while others still enjoying the scenic. It's been almost 30 years since MMA destroy all the other TMA already. Sadly I am still waiting for the comeback.
Tell us about your home gym....
- Thread starter Jared Traveler
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If you can do this, you are functionally strong. In other words, your legs, waist, spine, arms can all function together. There exist no weak parts.
You must be a striker. Most strikers take your approach. A wrestler may take different approach.
For example, to twist your opponent down to the ground is an important wrestling skill.
Since there exist no machine in the modern gym that can help you to enhance the double arms twisting. You use "self-designed training equipment" at home to enhance that skill.
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MetalBoar
Black Belt
Sorry, I missed this post earlier. I wasn't ignoring your response!
I feel that you aren't just talking about "best performance", you're also talking about appearance too and using it for a metric for how well someone is training, without considering the large role that genetics play in how people look and how their bodies respond to stimulus. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that genetics play a significant role in aptitude and that aptitude impacts participation at most every level and participation shapes what we think a participant in a particular sport should look like.
People who have bodies that are ill suited to an activity tend self select out of those activities and gravitate towards activities to which their physique is more suited. I'm talking populations here, not individuals, there are plenty of short people who love and play basketball and skinny, more fragile, people who play football, but they tend to be the exceptions.
For example, I have really short legs and a really tall torso. I hate long distance running. It is just about the most miserable activity that I can imagine. My short legs have to carry my big, heavy, upper body around and I have to take like 3 strides for every 2 of other guys my height. Sprinting I've always enjoyed, because even as a little kid I've always carried a lot of muscle on my legs and I could run short distances faster than my classmates. So, I did track and field in school, but I was never any good at any distance longer than 100 meters. I could accelerate quickly but there was a low limit on my top speed, like pedaling along on a bike in first gear.
Even at 100 meters, my short legs limited my abilities. I was the fastest boy in my elementary school, but I was middle of the pack among the much larger pool of competition in high school even though I put in as much or more effort than the average while getting the same coaching. I wouldn't call high school "best performance" or "world class", but my genetics definitely meant that I wasn't going to be taking first in the 100 meter at my high school, much less at the intramural or state level. And while short, my legs aren't freakishly short. People don't stare at them or make comments. They're just shorter than average enough to place an upper limit on my performance.
It's a chicken and the egg thing. Do sprinters, as a population, look like sprinters because they sprint, or do they sprint because they look like sprinters? I sprinted because I looked like a sprinter. Of course the more I sprinted, the more I looked like a sprinter, and my legs probably would have atrophied somewhat if I'd switched to running marathons, but I'd still have looked like a sprinter (with short, muscular, legs) trying to run a marathon. Can you find guys built like me running marathons who train exclusively and effectively for marathons? Sure, and some of them are pretty good, but not a lot of them are coming in first, even at small, local events.
Was it a waste of time to compete in the 100m dash, since I wasn't going to be successful in anything but the lowest level of competition? I guess it depends on your values. I had fun with it, and having trained in sprinting, though slow in comparison to a lot of other sprinters, I was still much faster than people who didn't have any training. Having grown up in a very violent time and place, this skill saved me from serious injury a couple of times too, so it did have some practical value as well.
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MetalBoar
Black Belt
I've done both striking and grappling, though you're probably right that I may be more of a striker than a wrestler.You must be a striker. Most strikers take your approach. A wrestler may take different approach.
For example, to twist your opponent down to the ground is an important wrestling skill.
Since there exist no machine in the modern gym that can help you to enhance the double arms twisting. You use "self-designed training equipment" at home to enhance that skill.
I agree that we approach things from a different perspective. I believe that you are a skilled wrestler and a good instructor. If I were your student I would absolutely do the drills in your links and I may try them on my own. I'm sure you're right that they are good for developing body unification and twisting skills that are valuable in wrestling. I expect I would also continue to lift weights, because I see these drills as skill development techniques that have the side effect of improving strength.
I'm sure these drills improve strength on their own, but I also think they're less efficient, and may have a lower ceiling for strength development, than the kind of weight lifting I do. Now we can debate efficiency, and it would take a study to determine whether or not it was overall more efficient to break the strength and skill components apart or train them together, but from my research on motor learning I believe that it's more efficient to break them apart.
That's why I don't go to the gym to improve my MA skills. I'm only interested in getting stronger muscles in the gym and, in my experience, weight lifting does the best job of that. I may not be able to develop those skills in the gym lifting weights, but I can definitely strengthen every muscle involved in those movements. Stronger muscles only make learning the skills in those drills easier. Once I had the strength, and those skills, I'd have the same functional strength as someone who developed it using those drills alone, and I think I'd be able to do it faster and equally well that way.
If I were retired or could get paid, and we had a budget for it, I'd love to conduct a study with you to see which way was better!
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
It's all about elbow control.
Attachments
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
About 30 years since UFC1 sure, but if anything I think MMA just showcased which TMA training methods worked and which didn't, in real application. Because BJJ is based on practical jujutsu, it stuck around. So did ancient southeast Asian full contact arts like Muay Boran's less lethal cousin Muay Thai, Lethwei, Sanshou. I even saw a French TMA kickboxer knock a Sumo wrestler's tooth out.
There is plenty of Filipino TMA represented in the UFC overall. NO doubt! But especially the first dozen.
MMA didn't really exist in 1993, when the term was coined. It was more of an idea, based on TMA full contact styles from several different early civs (Greek, Chinese, Egyptian). Nowadays, MMA can be anything (some MMArtists learn dozens of styles), but it's really just returning to its roots.
Point is MMA pick all the useful part for a lot of TMA.....AND eliminate all the useless, show-off stuffs, and put them together to form a practical, no nonsense fighting style.
Like BJJ ground game, it's effective, but there's nothing nice looking about it. Muy Thai is very effective striking style, but it's nothing pretty about it. They literally eliminate all the fancy moves and straight to the point. This is what I referred to the quickest way to go from A to B is a straight line, one doesn't spend a second on any extra move to "beautify" the move.
Even though MMA use a lot of TKD kicks, but Muy Thai kicks are just as effective without the high knee, strong pivot that make the kick pretty. Boxing punch are direct straight line(well there are hooks!!!), not like those CMA swinging the whole arm, going in round motion and all that.
Funny part is when I was I kid, I remember we had the yearly MA competition of Asia on tv that different style fight each other. I was really young before I learn anything. I watched the fights on tv, my first question was " WHY THEIR FIGHT ALL LOOKS THE SAME!!!" They all looked like street brawling, just swinging wild. Where are all the fancy moves they practice? The monkey style, prey mantis, tiger, wing chung. Just dog fight, wild swinging. My immediate question was, if they fight like this, why WASTING time to practice all the "SCENIC" moves?
I would imagine after the TMA got destroyed in the first few UFC, they should really start to look inward and be humble and learn. I guess not. It was so pitiful. Gracie disappeared, the Wrestlers took over in the mid 90s. TMA did NOT fair any better. Wrestler still kicked their butts. I started to wonder which one doesn't kick TMA's butts. Don't forget the Russia Sambo(I am not sure).
Oh Yeh, The more I look into Filipino MA, the more I am impressed by it. You will NEVER hear any comment about FMA and Muy Thai in the CMA circle. I am learning the knife fight in FMA video. I looked at a lot of stick fight videos, FMA definitely the best.
It might be a joke about catching fish bare handed in the river, but the more I see, it's not as funny as I thought!!! It start to be quite sad.
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Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Ha ha, do NOT test my Chinese, not good!!!! What's that mean?
I gave it all back to my teachers already. I don't even think I can survive in Hong Kong now that they change the writing. I have a hard time even reading the road sign last time I went back.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
I don't know anything about that. You Chinese?
I don't use it as a metric, but other people do. There's an entire industry built off that very same metric that goes by appearance.
They aren't the exceptions. There's a difference between being able to do those things and being able to do those things on a professional level. That's when ignore genetics. Go to any basketball court in the park or in a recreation gym and you'll find short people playing basket ball. As much as I used to play basketball there was always someone short on the court. That may be different when it comes to professional basketball, but people can have basketball skills without being a professional.
If this guy can play basketball then there's no one else has an excuse to say that genetics is why they can't play. They may not be a professional player, but being a professional is not a requirement for being able to play basketball.
You are focused too much on trying to be the best instead of just doing your best. I'm a sprinter and I rand 5ks and 10ks. I wasn't a natural at that and I had to put in a lot of training for that. Where some runners at my school had more than 10 years of experience with running distance, my entire Cross country and distance running was only 3 years. Year 1 was my first time ever. I'm short 5'9. There were girls out there who were shorter than me running. There were some guys out there who were also shorter than me and they beat me on the regular. Through that entire time I didn't care about being the best. I just focused on me being my best. My only competition was the clock. My only goal was to run faster than I did in the previous race. Genetics doesn't matter because I'm racing myself. So the only person I have to beat is myself.
Jimmythebull
2nd Black Belt
I hope the guy has a good orthopedic surgeon near by. I noticed on YouTube the comments are turned off for that particular Video.
I wonder why
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Jimmythebull
2nd Black Belt
Yes exactly he's showing what traditional style tend to show in their self defense. His demonstration shows clearly the reality of a cutting edge..fast , change of an angle...you're cut. With a stick or something you've a chance but like he said...run if you can but if cornered then you've no choice but to fight.
But yeah I laugh at some peoples ideas on knife defence
That's why I kept talking about people need to think, don't trust blindly. But I often being told I don't know enough, that I need to learn a lot more before I can understand.
This is similar to punching and kicking defense. You see those TMA have their hands down. When people attack, they start to do all sort of fancy blocking, fancy footwork and all. I believe nothing is as practical as just KEEP YOUR HANDS UP CLOSE TO THE FACE. Don't assume you are so good you can react and block, move to the side and counter. If not for anything, the hands can serve as cushion to cushion the punch or kick to the face!!! It's biological for people to take a split second to react to punching. Unless one is as fast as Bruce Lee, don't count on reacting fast enough to block the punch or kick by doing fancy movement.
Just like knife defense. It is so stupid to try to grab and twist the knife holding hand and all that.
same as stick fight also. You watch those videos, they can get fancy how to do grappling with the stick. I just don't understand why people just immediately go into fancy moves on everything. That's why after a few months following FMA single hand stick fight, I change to two hands. I spend a lot of time doing what your video show around 8:30, hit with whole body movement, and then PULL BACK the stick very fast because I can do it with both hands to prevent over swing. I even practice hit, then pull back the same path, and hit with the same strike to the same spot again. I bet the opponent would not be prepare for me to hit back the same spot, thinking that I do it like everyone else to hit from the other direction. I can hit just as fast to the head from the right, then hit the leg from the right again. All because I pull back just as hard as I strike.
I believe in thinking and make judgement. Who is to say my idea is inferior than other's. So far, I've seen too many stupid things in the TMA already. They ain't that wise after hundreds of years, or else, they won't be beaten so bad now a days and still refuse to learn.
Jimmythebull
2nd Black Belt
I actually prefer just one stick. I'm not a fan either of the fancy stuff. Not because I can't do it but it's a waste of time in a real fight. Sure it looks impressive in a video but I like to just hit the guy as directly & efficiently as possible. No messing around. PFOOM PFOOM......
I meant swinging ONE stick with two hands, like holding a katana. I changed to two hands after I saw a video on escrima competition where the two guys wacked each other stupid for the whole duration, they were both standing after the fight. Yes, they wore some protection gear, but full power wacking, they did not even attempt to block, just wacking each other stupid.I actually prefer just one stick. I'm not a fan either of the fancy stuff. Not because I can't do it but it's a waste of time in a real fight. Sure it looks impressive in a video but I like to just hit the guy as directly & efficiently as possible. No messing around. PFOOM PFOOM......
I change to two hands holding the cane since that day. I use a 20oz cane instead of those 10oz rattan canes for single hand swing.
Also, the more important thing is with two hands, I have so much more control, like pulling back quick. I can swing more compact that can be used in confined space. Those stick fight MA seems to only thinking of competition where you have flat open space. In real life, you don't have that. Say in the restaurant, you have people, tables and chairs in the way. You swing wild, you hit everything else before hitting the opponent. You might lose the stick hitting unexpecting things along the way. Two hands holding the cane solve most of the problems.
Other than Filipino Tapado, I have not seen anyone holding with two hands. But I don't like Tapado because they use a longer stick. Also, I fail to see why they kept hitting the ground to stop the swing!!! Why? With two hands, I can stop the cane in mid air if the cane is like normal cane length.
Since no style comes even close to how I want to do it. I just practice on my own on heavy bag and air. I concentrate in hitting fast, hitting HARD. Forget all the fancy stuffs. I concentrate on hitting the knee where it's hard for the opponent to reach down to grab the stick. 20oz stick swing full force on the knee. I think the stick will win.
Jimmythebull
2nd Black Belt
I think that given the competition between schools they're trying to stay ahead of each other with different fancy looking moves. From what I've seen the schools who teach more Single stick are, in my opinion better...or better for me. Competition is never like really fighting but I get your opinion on it.
PFOOM..PFOOM !
Jimmythebull
2nd Black Belt
This guy is correct about losing muscle as we age & someone on the thread mentioned bone density. I think he needs to watch his diet though, looks overweight.
One Form of weight training I've found very useful, & as you'll see this isn't new is a system Bob Gadja used.
physicalculturestudy.com
Bob Gajda’s Peripheral Heart Action (PHA) Training - Physical Culture Study
One point that always fascinates me about training is the sheer diversity one finds when it comes to training systems, exercises and training philosophies. What works for one trainee can prove pointless to another. No matter how good the programme, it often has to be tailored towards the...
physicalculturestudy.com
