Teen Black Belt Busted After Near-Deadly Kick

[Stealthy]

I'd start by questioning which "societies" you're referring to, and point out that, colelctively, mankind's history is an unending tale of the spilling of blood, from the earliest of our caveman ancestors to the present day.

Man's hands were made for clubs. Levers, caresses, other tools are all incidental to this, which was undoubtedly our very first tool.

If an act of violence doesn't justify a violent response-and please note, I'm not saying that violence is always the answer, just an answer that is often justified-then why learn to respond at all with violence, never mind violence without attachment to emotion or thought?

The society I refer to is the Global society which entails every person on Earth.

I wholeheartedly agree with your ascertion of man-kinds roots including the effective application of violence when necessary which has facilitated our survival throughout the ages.

It is my ascertion that modern-man needs to work harder to develop non-violent solutions to its problems rather than rely on the primitive and in some instances barbaric practices to stave off oppression in all its forms.

Therefore my official stance is "there is never an excuse" and resorting to the application of force onto another living being should be a source of shame.

As far as martial arts go I thoroughly enjoy studying them and sparring which is concentual and provides the framework for that concent. The failure of the BB in question was to operate outside that framework and perform an act of non-concentual violence.

It is with a real world understanding that there are problems that arise which currently only have solutions which involve the use of force that I train in self-defence and rely on Mushin but that is not to say I think it is okay just that it is the best solution currently available.

With Respect,
Stealthy.

 

[elder999]

TheTherefore my official stance is "there is never an excuse" and resorting to the application of force onto another living being should be a source of shame..

A "justification" isn't an "excuse," it's a reason.

 

[Stealthy]

A "justification" isn't an "excuse," it's a reason.

Fair enough, in that sense I would say the reason is that as a society we are lacking and therefore resort to primitive solutions.

 

[elder999]

Fair enough, in that sense I would say the reason is that as a society we are lacking and therefore resort to primitive solutions.

In what way were the actions of the boy in the original post attibutable to the lacks of "society," as opposed to lacks in his teaching and parenting?

What would have been an appropriate response that was not violent, or a "primitive solution?"

 

[Stealthy]

In what way were the actions of the boy in the original post attibutable to the lacks of "society," as opposed to lacks in his teaching and parenting?

What would have been an appropriate response that was not violent, or a "primitive solution?"

The actions of the boy are attributable to society as well as his parents and teachers due to the excessive proliferation of violence(including so called justifiable varients) which in no uncertain terms indicates that on some levels violence is okay.

Societies failure in general was in setting a bad example. I would argue that the boy in question was lacking in emotional skills and so rather than performing an act of violence on him(or even threatening to) which in essence validates his assumption that violence is okay education is the answer and at its most basic level he should be educated to the point of feeling empathy and therefore guilt for what he did.

While I can appreciate this is not some kind of punishment but a preventative measure, to insist he needs to be punished is merely an opportunistic expression of an inate thirst for causing pain onto others.

The true crime was that he was able to get to that age without developing even the most basic emotional skills of compassion and empathy. It is society as a whole that is responsible for ensuring that all of its constituents develop well.

On the whole humanity has some really serious problems and most of which are well beyond the scope of the application of retribution to correct. I would argue that this is not a fault in the application so much as that which is being applied.

We use an arbitrary system which basically says a little bit of hurt is okay but don't hurt too much. This opens the door wide open for subtle forms of oppression for which there is no tangible way of applying "reasonable force" and therefore the whole business of fear and punishment should be abolished in favour of a better solution(perhaps education).

 

[Makalakumu]

Who can know why the boy came out and kicked the other boy after the match. Yeah, society is kinda screwy, but that doesn't change the fact that the boy made a choice to do this. In kindergarten we learn to not hurt others, not steal, and not tell lies. The fact that we unlearn it in so many ways after kindergarten doesn't change the fact that at one point, at some level, an individual should know this is wrong.

 

[elder999]

The actions of the boy are attributable to society as well as his parents and teachers due to the excessive proliferation of violence(including so called justifiable varients) which in no uncertain terms indicates that on some levels violence is okay.

On some levels, violence is okay. On the level the boy was perpetrating it, it is not, and the numerous examples of how massive a violation this is-from our general disapprvoal right down to his arrest-indicate how it was not-at all- "okay."

Societies failure in general was in setting a bad example. I would argue that the boy in question was lacking in emotional skills and so rather than performing an act of violence on him(or even threatening to) which in essence validates his assumption that violence is okay education is the answer and at its most basic level he should be educated to the point of feeling empathy and therefore guilt for what he did.

Nah. The kid was a ****head. I never took a cheap-shot at someone for beating me at a match, and neither did my kids.

If they had, I'd have delivered a proper spanking-not to mention however grounded they'd have been-and they knew it. They also understood the value of losing, that the match wasn't just about winning, etc., etc., etc.-these are his parent's and his teacher's failings, not society's. While I'd agree with your assessment of his emotional skills, I would hesitate to make society at all respobsible-in fact, given our laws and mores, I'd say that assertion is basically wrong.

While I can appreciate this not some kind of punishment but a preventative measure, to insist he needs to be punished is merely an opportunistic expression of an inate thirst for causing pain onto others.

pancake bunny,,

The true crime was that he was able to get to that age without developing even the most basic emotional skills of compassion and empathy. It is society as a whole that is responsible for ensure that all of its constituents develop well.

And, while I'm not saying that this is the case here, there are individuals born completely without any innate capacity for compassion or empathy.

On the whole humanity has some really serious problems and most of which are well beyond the scope of the application of retribution to correct. I would argue that this is not a fault in the application so much as that which is being applied.

pancake bunny.

We use an arbitrary system which basically says a little bit of hurt is okay but don't hurt too much. This opens the door wide open for subtle forms of oppression for which there is no tangible way of applying "reasonable force" and therefore the whole business of fear and punishment should be abolished in favour of a better solution(perhaps education).

pancake bunny-though, in this case, I know what you're saying, I just don't see how it's relevant.

 

[Stealthy]

at some level, an individual should know this is wrong.

Agreed, I am merely pointing out that as an enlightened society we can not sit back and say well he should have known better, it's his parents and teachers fault but rather it is everybody's fault since we have all failed that kid that got kicked in the head.

And, while I'm not saying that this is the case here, there are individuals born completely without any innate capacity for compassion or empathy.

That's true but I would hope in time medicine can even correct physical limitations on developing full potential.

Sure you got me, the pancakes are really starting to pile up, seeing that picture makes it all worthwhile though so I would say that's exactly where the relevancy is.

 

[elder999]

Agreed, I am merely pointing out that as an enlightened society we can not sit back and say well he should have known better, it's his parents and teachers fault but rather it is everybody's fault since we have all failed that kid that got kicked in the head.

I'd say that the assumption that we are an enlightened society in any way is pretty far afield. I'd also say that placing the blame on society rather than the kid, his parents and teachers is far afield indeed......

 

[Stealthy]

I'd say that the assumption that we are an enlightened society in any way is pretty far afield. I'd also say that placing the blame on society rather than the kid, his parents and teachers is far afield indeed......

Well...as well as...but.....Indeed...

 

[Tez3]

I do find it wryly amusing that often the proposed punishment for actingly violently is spanking. I always imagine a parent hitting a child while repeating over and over again to it..... 'do not hit people, do not hit people'.
If this teenager has been taught correctly by his parents in the first place and his instructors secondly of course he should have known better, he probably did afterwards but it's that 'heat of the moment' teeanage, hormonal rage thing which went too far. Hands up then who was perfect as teenagers? It's fine for us adults to sit and go tut tut but who knows what passion, what frustration, what disappointment lies in a teenage boy's chest? Of course he shouldn't have done it, he should have been taught Kipling's 'If', unless of course there was an immense amount of pressure on him to win, put there by people who should have known better. There may have been a cost to his losing according to them so he couldn't bear losing and cracked. It would be interesting to get some more insight into this whole situation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I do find it wryly amusing that often the proposed punishment for actingly violently is spanking. I always imagine a parent hitting a child while repeating over and over again to it..... 'do not hit people, do not hit people'.
If this teenager has been taught correctly by his parents in the first place and his instructors secondly of course he should have known better, he probably did afterwards but it's that 'heat of the moment' teeanage, hormonal rage thing which went too far. Hands up then who was perfect as teenagers? It's fine for us adults to sit and go tut tut but who knows what passion, what frustration, what disappointment lies in a teenage boy's chest? Of course he shouldn't have done it, he should have been taught Kipling's 'If', unless of course there was an immense amount of pressure on him to win, put there by people who should have known better. There may have been a cost to his losing according to them so he couldn't bear losing and cracked. It would be interesting to get some more insight into this whole situation.

Growing up, my father beat the snot out of me on a nearly daily basis. I mostly had it coming. I turned out fine and have never done anything like this little oxygen thief did. I can only say that corporal punishment worked in my case. I recommend it.

 

[Tez3]

Never touched my kids, ones in his thirties, the other is 26, turned out wonderfully, my brother and I were never beaten either, no one has ever been in my family, at least not by family, mother got beaten by Germans though, I imagine beatings were popular at that time. I'd recommend not beating children. Discipline yes, beating never.To my mind beating children is every bit as bad if not worse than what this teenager did, at least he could probably say he did it in the heat of the moment not in cold blood. Perhaps this teenager had been beaten too and thought it acceptable to then beat someone else, perhaps that's what he learned by being beaten, that violence is acceptable.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Perhaps this teenager had been beaten too and thought it acceptable to then beat someone else, perhaps that's what he learned by being beaten, that violence is acceptable.

Since, as I said, I was beaten by my father and I did not and do not think it is acceptable to do what this toerag did, then no, I reject that argument.

 

[elder999]

I do find it wryly amusing that often the proposed punishment for actingly violently is spanking. I always imagine a parent hitting a child while repeating over and over again to it..... 'do not hit people, do not hit people'.

Glad you caught that-from the age of about 2, all I had to say to my son was Don't do that, or I'll sink your ship, sometimes just I'll sink your ship! and he would behave. Never had to raise a hand to him beyond a swat on the butt early on. Same with my daughter-on the other hand, they both were taught how to behave. WHen they did misbehave or disobey, there were consequences, and that was usually the talk we had before hand, whether it was a grounding or taking away one of their favortite toys.It's as I said-this kid missed a few trips to the woodshed, and it's far too late for any "spanking" to do any good now-it's not about "spanking," or even punishment-it's about establishing limits early on, and maintaining them. Frankly, I think even jail won't turn this one around.

THis kid clearly never had any limits established-never was taught that his actions had consequences-never experienced having consequences to his actions, or he wouldn't have behaved in such a shameful manner.

If this teenager has been taught correctly by his parents in the first place and his instructors secondly of course he should have known better, he probably did afterwards but it's that 'heat of the moment' teeanage, hormonal rage thing which went too far. Hands up then who was perfect as teenagers? It's fine for us adults to sit and go tut tut but who knows what passion, what frustration, what disappointment lies in a teenage boy's chest? Of course he shouldn't have done it, he should have been taught Kipling's 'If', unless of course there was an immense amount of pressure on him to win, put there by people who should have known better. There may have been a cost to his losing according to them so he couldn't bear losing and cracked. It would be interesting to get some more insight into this whole situation.

It doesn't sound like an impulsive heat of the moment thing to me-he went back to the locker rooom, changed clothes, and then came back out and kicked the kid.

And yeah, Irene-I was a perfect teen ager:lfao: I learned early on, though, what disappointment is, and how to live with it-and that there really is no choice in the matter, because life is full of disappointments, just as it's full of happiness.If there was too much pressure on him to win, then-again, it's a faiilure in parenting and teaching.

Kid didn't behave like a black belt. Didn't behave like a sportsman. Didn't behave like a citizen. Barely behaved like a human being, and displayed one of our less desirable human traits at that.

 

[MaxiMe]

I'm with Bill on this one. Some times you need to apply the hand of learning to the seat of knowledge.

 

[Makalakumu]

I do find it wryly amusing that often the proposed punishment for acting violently is spanking. I always imagine a parent hitting a child while repeating over and over again to it..... 'do not hit people, do not hit people'.

I have to agree with Tez3 on this. Striking a child to force them to obey is a form of child abuse. It sends mixed messages and is probably responsible for all kinds of mental trauma that can play its way out in many ways. I don't spank my children and have always been able to teach them proper behavior.

 

[Twin Fist]

i got beat to hell on a near daily basis too, and i deserved everyone one of those beatings and guess what? they worked. Clean criminal record and no violence in my past or present. the thing is, SOME kids dont need a beating. great. But dont assume that they ALL dont just cuz your's didnt. My case proves that some kids just need a good beating to get the message to sink in

 

[Makalakumu]

Maybe this discussion is getting too far off topic, so I'll keep this brief. I got my share of beatings as a child and one thing I've come to recognize through therapy is that the effects of these acts don't have to express as direct physical violence. Beatings cause a lot of emotional trauma that affects your mind and shapes your thoughts. Our society uses violence against all kinds of people everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me at all if these are connected.

 

[Tez3]

I think one thing that was said and I know this is opening the can of worms that has kicked off arguments here before....is that this lad didn't act like a black belt. My and my instructor's belief as well as a lot of people I know is that black belts aren't for children and this lad is still a child. Black belts are for adults who understand the point of being awarded/given/earning a black belt.
There's a lot of things I'd like to know more about in this case, what were the expectations laid on this boy? His and/or others expecattions, is he just a sore loser of a fight or is there more to it that that, has he been given a sense of entitlement that he should win everything? Is he the best in his training establishment who beats everyone and his instructor has told him he is so good he can never lose? In MMA the well known saying is 'if you win every fight you aren't fighting the right people', perhaps this lad feels hard done by because he's been told he can't lose and by losing has lost more than the fight he's lost his ego, his balance, his belief in instructors and maybe parents. As they say 'it's complicated'. Punish the lad for what he did of course but also he must be made to understand that losing isn't the end of the world.