Anythings possible. But on face value, this kid isn't a stranger to crime, and as the article shows, he has 2 armed robberies under his belt. Apparently, the help, if he's in fact getting it, isn't working. Of course, as I always say, help is a 2-way street. The person has to have the desire to be helped, otherwise, its a waste of time.
Officer Fires At Teen Armed With Realistic BB Gun
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Anythings possible. But on face value, this kid isn't a stranger to crime, and as the article shows, he has 2 armed robberies under his belt. Apparently, the help, if he's in fact getting it, isn't working. Of course, as I always say, help is a 2-way street. The person has to have the desire to be helped, otherwise, its a waste of time.
Disco
Green Belt
You don't run and gun.......at your local square gun range.......in the really real world, though, it don't quite work like that.......targets move, you move, and you don't have all the time in the world. 
You don't run and gun on the street either. You pursue the perp, but you don't discharge your weapon without a clear shot evaluation. You stop, take aim or if relatively close (3 to 5 feet) you point and shoot. You don't attempt to discharge your weapon while in the throws of a foot chase as your body is moving and your breathing is labored. Granted, you don't have all the time in the world, but you do have enough time to do it right, not only for your own safety but the safety of the general public. Would hate to see the results of the shooting review board, if this officer did hit someone else in the process of trying to hit the assailant. :shotgun:
As an aside, yes I've seen the elephant, but didn't smell any peanuts........
You don't run and gun on the street either. You pursue the perp, but you don't discharge your weapon without a clear shot evaluation. You stop, take aim or if relatively close (3 to 5 feet) you point and shoot. You don't attempt to discharge your weapon while in the throws of a foot chase as your body is moving and your breathing is labored. Granted, you don't have all the time in the world, but you do have enough time to do it right, not only for your own safety but the safety of the general public. Would hate to see the results of the shooting review board, if this officer did hit someone else in the process of trying to hit the assailant. :shotgun:
As an aside, yes I've seen the elephant, but didn't smell any peanuts........
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
You don't run and gun.......at your local square gun range.......in the really real world, though, it don't quite work like that.......targets move, you move, and you don't have all the time in the world.
You don't run and gun on the street either. You pursue the perp, but you don't discharge your weapon without a clear shot evaluation. You stop, take aim or if relatively close (3 to 5 feet) you point and shoot. You don't attempt to discharge your weapon while in the throws of a foot chase as your body is moving and your breathing is labored. Granted, you don't have all the time in the world, but you do have enough time to do it right, not only for your own safety but the safety of the general public. Would hate to see the results of the shooting review board, if this officer did hit someone else in the process of trying to hit the assailant. :shotgun:
As an aside, yes I've seen the elephant, but didn't smell any peanuts........
How much time do you think is available in a gunfight? In your expert opinion.......I mean how many fractions of a second does one have to come to a complete stop, take up an isoceles or weaver position, both hands on the gun, feet squared, line up sights, and fire at a threat that is presenting a firearm in your direction?
How quick did you react in your last shooting? Theory is all well and good, but many good theories come up short in practice. I see you're a retired LE, and i've had 15 years on the job......i've never shot anyone, but i've been around when folks have. I've rarely seen nice, tight groups on corpses, and i've even more rarely seen static, squared up stances and perfect shooting platforms.......they do occur, but those things are situational.
When chasing someone on foot, who suddenly turns and presents, there is less than second to react........now, I can assume that I would have done better than that officer, but that would ONLY be an assumption........perhaps you're basing it on more than just theory and assumption, and perhaps not......only you know.
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sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Bullseye's don't shoot back, as they say.
Disco
Green Belt
How much time do you think is available in a gunfight? In your expert opinion.......I mean how many fractions of a second does one have to come to a complete stop, take up an isoceles or weaver position, both hands on the gun, feet squared, line up sights, and fire at a threat that is presenting a firearm in your direction?
Perhaps it's a difference in training, but I for one DON"T stop cold in my tracks and stand like a statue when somebody turns on me with a weapon (gun). The first instinct and the way we were trained, both PD and Military was to move off line/seek cover, then return fire if possible. Now the real focal point, as far as LEO's go, with this story is that the officer knew there was the potential that a weapon was in play. Now unless this kid started running backwards as he drew the gun from his waistband, the officer had enough time to set himself, after all he did warn the kid to drop the weapon, so we must assume that both parties were at a stop when all this went down. It would be beyond dumb to keep advancing on someone you knew had a weapon and was reaching for it and was in the process of turning to face you. There was/is more than enough time to react to him stopping/reaching and turning, but again, the distance factor is unknown. This adds to the evaluation that it was not good shooting. If he was within the 5 foot range, you just point and shoot, even from just clearing the holster, many departments practice this and grade on it. But if he had gun in hand already and was within that distance, it takes but less than a second to point and pull off 2 rounds. You make up half that distance when you extend your shooting arm. Now if he was further back, 8 to 12 feet, there was ample time to get off line/reduce your target area (turn sideways - crouch - duck behind a car, into a doorway, garbage can, light/telephone pole or anything else available) to reduce target area. Regardless of our personal discussion on the subject, I think we both can agree that both parties were LUCKY that, one the kid didn't have a real gun and fired at the officer and two, the kid was doubly lucky that the officer missed.
Perhaps it's a difference in training, but I for one DON"T stop cold in my tracks and stand like a statue when somebody turns on me with a weapon (gun). The first instinct and the way we were trained, both PD and Military was to move off line/seek cover, then return fire if possible. Now the real focal point, as far as LEO's go, with this story is that the officer knew there was the potential that a weapon was in play. Now unless this kid started running backwards as he drew the gun from his waistband, the officer had enough time to set himself, after all he did warn the kid to drop the weapon, so we must assume that both parties were at a stop when all this went down. It would be beyond dumb to keep advancing on someone you knew had a weapon and was reaching for it and was in the process of turning to face you. There was/is more than enough time to react to him stopping/reaching and turning, but again, the distance factor is unknown. This adds to the evaluation that it was not good shooting. If he was within the 5 foot range, you just point and shoot, even from just clearing the holster, many departments practice this and grade on it. But if he had gun in hand already and was within that distance, it takes but less than a second to point and pull off 2 rounds. You make up half that distance when you extend your shooting arm. Now if he was further back, 8 to 12 feet, there was ample time to get off line/reduce your target area (turn sideways - crouch - duck behind a car, into a doorway, garbage can, light/telephone pole or anything else available) to reduce target area. Regardless of our personal discussion on the subject, I think we both can agree that both parties were LUCKY that, one the kid didn't have a real gun and fired at the officer and two, the kid was doubly lucky that the officer missed.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
There's quite a few assumptions in that analysis that I don't personally find supported in the story......perhaps you're right and perhaps you aren't. For my part, however, i'm not going to base the argument that an officer screwed up on what was written in a few lines of news article........I lack that ability to second guess a shot fired in a chaotic situation.
The mileage of others, of course, may vary.....but at the end of the day, neither you nor I were there.......and unless we can take a trip to interview the officers, review the after actions, and walk through the scenario, it's all going to be WAG supposition..........the officer could have a really screwed up, but I don't have enough information to make that judgement....when such is the case my default position is to give a brother the benefit of the doubt until I have further information otherwise.
As to the last part, you and I are exactly in agreement.
I was thinking that! Or he could have taken that well aimed shot, while running, at the lad's leg to bring him down which has the effect of disarming him at the same time so he cowers, clutching his leg and gives up.
We had a lot of criticism a while back when armed police were called out to someone who was brandishing a replica weapon around. It was inactive and the police were supposed to be able to tell this from a distance according to many. Yeah right, constable just walk up to that man with a gun in his hand and see if it's real will you. Don't think so somehow.
So easy to criticise.
CoryKS
Senior Master
I wish I could find the article (and this was a few years before the internet I believe), but there was a case in DC I think where a teenager with a real gun was killed by police. People were all upset, demanding that they enact a policy of shooting for the leg or to disarm. Seriously, people watch way too many cop shows.
It goes with the perception too from watching these shows that it's easy for cops to kill people, that it doesn't affect the police officer in anyway. After all the cops on the shows just carry on as normal. I'm sure that if there really were a way to successfully shoot a gun out of someone's hand or just to wound them in the leg without danger to anyone else it would have been done. Taking a life, even of a murderer, rapist etc, isn't easy. A lot of responsiblity is put on officers in situations where there's a shooting so it's unfair to second guess officers without evidence they weren't doing their best.
