Techniques you learn in your MA that are probably not a good idea for Self Defense

[Steve]

In another thread on Hatred for Butt-Scooting (The hatred of boot scooting), the main objection seems to boil down to some version of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...."

So, that got me thinking about other styles and things I've seen that also fit into the category of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...." I can think of a few, but I thought it would be fun if you guys thought about your styles and some things you train where if you're honest about it, in real life, they would be a terrible idea.

 

[Oily Dragon]

In another thread on Hatred for Butt-Scooting (The hatred of boot scooting), the main objection seems to boil down to some version of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...."

So, that got me thinking about other styles and things I've seen that also fit into the category of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...." I can think of a few, but I thought it would be fun if you guys thought about your styles and some things you train where if you're honest about it, in real life, they would be a terrible idea.

Bone breaking techniques in some styles like Fu Jow and Southern Dragon are pretty brutal, easy to pull off, and intended to cause long term injury.

Give you one example, left handed wrist pull and drop while rising right elbow to the underarm elbow socket. At best a severe hyper extension, at worst a dislocation or compound fracture. Meant to permanently maim a fighter rather than kill so that word got out that so-and-so got crippled by you know who.

Effective (and illegal in MMA) but ...just the thought of doing that to someone else anywhere makes me a little queasy. I'm more of a defensive kung fool.

 

[Steve]

Bone breaking techniques in some styles like Fu Jow and Southern Dragon are pretty brutal, easy to pull off, and intended to cause long term injury.

Give you one example, left handed wrist pull and drop while rising right elbow to the underarm elbow socket. At best a severe hyper extension, at worst a dislocation or compound fracture. Meant to permanently maim a fighter rather than kill so that word got out that so-and-so got crippled by you know who.

Effective (and illegal in MMA) but ...just the thought of doing that to someone else anywhere makes me a little queasy. I'm more of a defensive kung fool.

Yeah, I always think of the curb stomp, and have said as much in other threads. If a guy is on the ground and self defense is the goal, why are you killing him by stomping on his head? Sounds like a terrible idea...

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yeah, I always think of the curb stomp, and have said as much in other threads. If a guy is on the ground and self defense is the goal, why are you killing him by stomping on his head? Sounds like a terrible idea...

Easily the most disturbing scene in American History X, and that's saying something.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Effective (and illegal in MMA)

Not at all illegal in MMA, just very hard to pull off against a competent resisting opponent.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, I always think of the curb stomp, and have said as much in other threads. If a guy is on the ground and self defense is the goal, why are you killing him by stomping on his head? Sounds like a terrible idea...

There's a technique in shaolin kempo, with multiple extraneous movements (like most SKK techniques but most can be boiled down a bit). This particular one, has you do some stuff, then throw a head-high roundhouse kick, that presumably knocks the guy over. After he's knocked over, you curbstomp his privates. Then jump up to his head area, throw double fingers into his eye twice (different strikes, but comes down to he's getting 4 eyejabs). After you've presumably knocked him out/to the floor, mangled his nuts, and ruined his eyes, you then throw 3 different kicks to his head, with the last one being a soccer kick if I'm remembering the order of them right. Then you run away.

Only thing you're running from is the cops, because if you got through all of that without it being stopped, he's not getting back up, and no jury is going to say that was all needed for self-defense.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Not at all illegal in MMA, just very hard to pull off against a competent resisting opponent.

It's a 6-12 elbow. No strike is allowed with it rising or falling.

It's not difficult at all to pull off against a resisting opponent, because it's basically an armbar that uses gravity rather than pressure. It can be done standing or on the ground, too.

You'd quickly get DQ'd in BJJ competition if you even tried it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Chinese wrestling, when you drag your opponent's arm and he resists, you borrow his resistance force and ...

I don't like this take down. In a street fight, to drop your knee on the hard ground can damage your knee joint in the long run.

My teacher always said, "What kind of person that will drop his knees in front of his enemy?" I assume he was talking about "in a REAL fight".

The same issue also exist in the western wrestling.

 

[lklawson]

In another thread on Hatred for Butt-Scooting (The hatred of boot scooting), the main objection seems to boil down to some version of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...."

So, that got me thinking about other styles and things I've seen that also fit into the category of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...." I can think of a few, but I thought it would be fun if you guys thought about your styles and some things you train where if you're honest about it, in real life, they would be a terrible idea.

I don't like the question. Or maybe I reject it?

Not all "real fights" are defined the same. Let's say you're a great boxer; Golden Gloves champ. You're walking down a hypothetical street when a hypothetical Escrimador attacks you with a 27" Bolo. You are awesome at head-bobbing, know how to "cover," and have the rope-a-dope inside and out. They're all inappropriate for the "real fight" which you are in now.

Part of the problem is not that "real fights don't have rules." They actually do. It's just that the rules change based on any number of things from location to culture and you may not know what the rules are. You may be well prepared for "real fights" in your own normal context but unprepared in some other.

What is or is not "a terrible idea ... in real life" is very much context driven.

And that is one of the things about martial arts, particularly <cough> "traditional" martial arts. People who study "traditional" martial arts often study an art developed in a context ill suited for their specific needs of self defense, but they study them anyway because of their own personal interests. This has been a noted paradigm for centuries. Few people expected the Rapier to be used much on "the Battlefield." And no one expects a modern "trained Marine" to lob a grenade in the process of a "bar fight."

Just because a given technique may not be applicable in some context that is seen by someone as a "real fight," doesn't mean that it is not valuable in the context of some other "real fight."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Related to some of the comments above, I ran across this video from 1943. Note that there are some terms used by the narrator that are not generally acceptable by today's standards, but at the time we were at war with Japan and Germany:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's just that the rules change based on any number of things from location to culture ...

In Chinese culture, before you start a street fight, you first try to find a brick (巷战神器 - street fight master tool).

 

[Steve]

Along the lines of @Monkey Turned Wolf 's post, this was interesting to me:

Relevant, I think, that this guy was banned from entering the UK 10 years ago because his training was "not conducive to the public good," for teaching people how to "maim and kill in self-defense."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's a 6-12 elbow. No strike is allowed with it rising or falling.

I believe you are misinterpreting the rule. It's the 12-6 path coming straight down with the point of the elbow which is outlawed. I understand your confusion though, because the wording in the rules is a little unclear.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

After he's knocked over, you curbstomp his privates. Then jump up to his head area, throw double fingers into his eye twice (different strikes, but comes down to he's getting 4 eyejabs). After you've presumably knocked him out/to the floor, mangled his nuts, and ruined his eyes, you then throw 3 different kicks to his head, with the last one being a soccer kick if I'm remembering the order of them right. Then you run away.

I assume you are talking about a joke.

Many years ago, There was a post that said, "You crack open your opponent's skull. Take a handful of his brain, put into your mouse, look around, and smile.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In another thread on Hatred for Butt-Scooting (The hatred of boot scooting), the main objection seems to boil down to some version of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...."

So, that got me thinking about other styles and things I've seen that also fit into the category of, "Yeah, but... in a REAL fight...." I can think of a few, but I thought it would be fun if you guys thought about your styles and some things you train where if you're honest about it, in real life, they would be a terrible idea.

A lot of my primary art is incorrectly viewed by some (including some instructors) as directly applicable to self-defense. My experience and my research both suggest that's not the case. There are several Classical techniques I refer to as "esoteric", which are about as directly applilcable as a speed bag. They are drills to develop principles, not actual fighting techniques. I think the fact that they are labeled "techniques", rather than "exercises" is a large part of the issue.

If you can find a video of the NGA Unbendable Arm classical technique (not the ki technique, which is related) I challenge you to make that seem like a good idea in direct application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's a technique in shaolin kempo, with multiple extraneous movements (like most SKK techniques but most can be boiled down a bit). This particular one, has you do some stuff, then throw a head-high roundhouse kick, that presumably knocks the guy over. After he's knocked over, you curbstomp his privates. Then jump up to his head area, throw double fingers into his eye twice (different strikes, but comes down to he's getting 4 eyejabs). After you've presumably knocked him out/to the floor, mangled his nuts, and ruined his eyes, you then throw 3 different kicks to his head, with the last one being a soccer kick if I'm remembering the order of them right. Then you run away.

Only thing you're running from is the cops, because if you got through all of that without it being stopped, he's not getting back up, and no jury is going to say that was all needed for self-defense.

What, no re-stomp??

 

[Oily Dragon]

I believe you are misinterpreting the rule. It's the 12-6 path coming straight down with the point of the elbow which is outlawed. I understand your confusion though, because the wording in the rules is a little unclear.

Whether it's 6-12 or 12-6, it's got to be illegal to strike through an elbow the wrong way. That's unsportsmanlike conduct in any combat sport. It's definitely not one of the kung fu techniques allowed in San Shou. Instead of locking a limb, you just pull and fulcrum, fast. Snap.

You don't see people in grappling matches doing it, not because it's difficult (no more than getting an armbar itself), but because it's a super lame thing to pull on someone. Can you imagine if Gracie competitors starting striking through limbs, the real jujutsu way, rather than simulate it? Call the cops. No, the better solution is always to make your enemy plead for mercy, rather than cry in injury.

In the major southern family styles, this technique is called "Monkey Steals Peach". There's no peach, but you never see the elbow smash coming. Horrible way to mangle someone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Related to some of the comments above, I ran across this video from 1943. Note that there are some terms used by the narrator that are not generally acceptable by today's standards, but at the time we were at war with Japan and Germany:

Did they really have to put the Looney Toons concentric circles behind the title?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What, no re-stomp??

There's another technique at I think 2nd degree brown which IIRC there is actually a groin restomp. Or a back-groin stomp (the "attacker" is laying down on their back at that point), can't remember which. It was a newer technique that got added a little bit before I left so I don't remember it as well.

 

[drop bear]

Not a huge fan for RNC or even mount for holding people down.

Go for Mabye a minute but if you have to hold that for twenty minutes under some fatty. Or with your knees grinding in to the concrete. You are not going to have a good day of it.

Kasegetami is king in this case.