Teachers Discussion

[lhommedieu]

Anyone who thinks that teachers are overpaid and underworked should try teaching a 2nd grade class for a day.

Best,

Steve Lamade
14 years experience (and counting), NYC public school teacher.

P.S. Over 50% (and in some recent years, over 75%) of first-year NYC public school teachers end up leaving the profession within 5 years). "I can get paid more doing something easier" probably ranks up there among the reasons.

 

[Ender]

*LOL...funny how people can read something and still get it wrong. I never said they overpaid and underworked. I have said they are not underpaid, and I gave proof of salaries paid here.

but hey, you too can pump more money into "feel good, self esteem, left wing" education like California, and have your children score at the bottom of standardized test scores.*G...

If you open the education system up to a market system you'll most likely have teachers who make 6 figures...AND you'll have some that will be fired or remain at low wages. But the union will lose it's power, the bureaucracy will fight it tooth and nail, and politicians will lose a power base.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"I think right-wing folk are more supportive of Private education than feeding the failing public education facilities. To say anti-education is inaccurate.

I also don't think the politicians have to worry about leading the uneducated since most liberals for opening our boarders and aiding the "undocumented immigrants" (ILLEGAL Aliens). That is where they wish to derrive their voting base."

Sure. All this, and the Holy Market solves everything.

Fiddlesticks. First off, folks can blather about privatizing education as much as they want. What they really mean is this: it's come to my attention that immigrants, the poor, and colored people are getting an education on what I think is my dime. This is bad, and leads to social unrest, and even worse, the threatening of what I think is my position. It must stop.

I'd recommend going back and reading, say, Sinclair Lewis' "Babbitt." Sad part is, a lot of the folks advocating this nonsense don't ever realize that they and theirs are going to be its first targets.

Second...I am a product of American public ed, and proud of it. Kindergarten, grade school, high school (OK, not so proud of that), college--nothing private until grad school. If I had to get through college now, I'm not sure I could.

Why? Money, and the increasing lack of access to it by students who ain't rich. One example: when I was in college and grad school, I had virtually no income--full-time student, worked at it between 70 and 100 hours a week (no, I'm not exaggerating), so I paid virtually no taxes.

Year after I got out of grad school, I got a letter from the IRS. They'd changed the tax code (this was Ronald Reagan's government, incidentally) so that tuition and fee waivers from my University were counted as income. The school backed me up, as did all the Ivy Leagues that year for their students, and I didn't get stuck with it.

Three other people I knew did get stuck...with the tax bills for several years back, on 30,000/year income when in fact they barely had a summer job stocking books in the library.

In this, and a host of other ways, the Power That Be are closing the door on education for everybody who isn't born rich.

You might also want to note what's happened in California with higher ed...thousands got bounced because of money.

Guess we'll have to fix the Statue of Liberty, so she'd giving the world the finger and the sign on the bottom reads, "PISS OFF."

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Ender
teaching is a low paid profession because almost anyone can do it and teachers are plentiful. all you need is a bachelor's degree to teach up to a community college level. some teachers only need "industry experience". if the wages for teaching went up dramatically, then current teachers would be driven out of the market by better candidates.

Kobe Bryant makes alot of money because he generate alot of revenue like ticket sales, advertizing, and merchandizing. They aren't paying Kobe to just play basketball, they are paying him to generate cash, which he does.

Oh, where do you teach?

 

[MisterMike]

I think that by "blathering" about private schools they mean to say they prefer no overcrowding, quality education that isn't read from a national teaching plan, safer school grounds, and a general more bang for the buck. Of course they're still going to get soaked with taxes to support everyone else's public education.

This whole "angy white threatened conservative male" is a false image given by the left.

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Oh, where do you teach?

doesn't matter does it?*L

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I think that by "blathering" about private schools they mean to say they prefer no overcrowding, quality education that isn't read from a national teaching plan, safer school grounds, and a general more bang for the buck. Of course they're still going to get soaked with taxes to support everyone else's public education.

This whole "angy white threatened conservative male" is a false image given by the left.

EXACTLY!!..there's a reason why private school and home schooled students do better than the public school students. Those are the models we need to target. just as business has had to adjust to change, so does education.

And I am neither angry nor white..*l

 

[Cruentus]

I think you all should think real hard before you toss around your right-winged crap.

I worked in Rochester Schools for 5 years...started off as an assistant after high school in special ed., and eventually ended up teaching math to high schoolers at an alternative center.

The fact is, I worked with some damn gifted kids who now have decent careers in both college and in real world jobs. They are happy taxpayers, and contributers to society. Many of these kids who were poor, didn't have the $$ to go to "private schools," and had all been "in trouble" at some point, landing them at the alternative center. These kids would have "fell though the cracks."

You know where the kids who "fall through the cracks" end up, folks? IN JAIL! I have a few students who I couldn't "save" who ended up there. The fact is, if we don't take care of EVERY kids education with OUR TAX $$, poor, middle class, or rich, then we will have to PAY MORE FOR THEM LATER IN OUR JAILS!

I don't know about you, but I'd rather fund better public education with my tax dollars then fund more prison space, or have to worry one of those kids who were "left behind" robbing me in the parking lot due to increased crime. THINK about THAT before you spout your do-do.

You can also think about this FACT before you spout more pop placing private ed. on a pedistal: Private Education often has LOWER standards for teachers, and they impose lower standards on the students. I know this because while I was going through my certification, I had private schools trying to hire me for 20K a year (and sometimes less) BEFORE I was done with college! Many of these private schools suck...bottom line. I find it ironic how "the right" talks about "higher standards in schools" and then pushes privite education, where there is NO standardized testing or measurements. Worse, the parents get sucked into thinking that their kids will get a better education then in the "secular" schools, which is laughable. Now Granted, there are some Private schools that do have very high standards, but they are usually very expensive to attend.

So...take that...you...you... conservative faces! I am currently calling as many dirty hippies as I can find to picket your houses!
:rofl:

[side bar: no...I am not really upset. I am just kidding about the doody stuff. I am actually serious about my other points, however, and I think there is some validy to the education/crime connection, and there have been studies done on the subject].

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Ender
EXACTLY!!..there's a reason why private school and home schooled students do better than the public school students. Those are the models we need to target. just as business has had to adjust to change, so does education.

And I am neither angry nor white..*l

:rofl: I'm angry and white! Hey...how many kids do YOU have in private education?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I think that by "blathering" about private schools they mean to say they prefer no overcrowding, quality education that isn't read from a national teaching plan, safer school grounds, and a general more bang for the buck. Of course they're still going to get soaked with taxes to support everyone else's public education.

This whole "angy white threatened conservative male" is a false image given by the left.

Oh you mean members of largest voting block and not to mention the holders of most if not all of the money, are as content as all get out. Damn those liberals messing with our heads again!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Ender
doesn't matter does it?*L

Actualy it does matter because I'm trying to figure out weather or not you are part of the problem or the solution. Part of the problem with public education is that parents sit at home and explain to the kids what idiots their teachers are and then expect their kids to do well and respect adults. If the parents don't respect anything then their kids will not either. What we seem to have here is a lot of people just chomping at the bit to dismantle public education in favor of smaller private instituions that keep their kid away from everyone else's ,good for nothing, kids. The last I checked teachers were paid less than anyother profession for the amount of education required. This is a throw back from the old school marm days when teaching is just what some young ladys did before they were married( like Miss Crabtree on little rascals). Anyways I see you trying to destroy a proffesion that for the most part has always been broke and since Robert stole the "fiddlesticks" comment I say poppycock! Public education is our nations only hope. Enforced parenting is what our kids need not a revamping of the education system by a bunch of folks such as yourself that only think they understand the problem.
Sean

 

[Ender]

*loading my my right wing crap cannon with the mother of all bombs....


oh please, not the education or jail tripe!!!..egads!!

actually there's a greater link between immates in jail and the lack of fathers in the household growing up. If you want to attack the jail issue you would do better to promote mother/father families. I know the PC thing is to say if we educate people there would be less of them in jail. But.......in talking to a Juvenile Probation officer ,who backed up the research I did, He said 75% of these kids come from single parent families. these kids have a lot of hostility directed at the missing parent. now i'm not saying that single parents are bad (before we get these "my mother was a single parent and I turned out ok" stuff. But the fact is that parenting is a tough job and two parent familes are better than one.

an actual incident happened when one chaplain at a jail decided to pass out mother's day card for the inmates to send to their mothers. he had 500 cards and every one was sent out. thinking he would do the same thing come fathers day, he announced he would be giving out cards again. you know how many cards he gave out?...3...what do you think that means? probably that either they don't have contact with their father, or they don't know who their father is, or they hate him.

the link between education and crime is pretty much non existent. there is the same percentage of white collar crime as there is blue collar crime. But, there is a huge link between family units and crime. But I know that would go against every principle the left stands for and so it gets no attention.

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Actualy it does matter because I'm trying to figure out weather or not you are part of the problem or the solution. Part of the problem with public education is that parents sit at home and explain to the kids what idiots their teachers are and then expect their kids to do well and respect adults. If the parents don't respect anything then their kids will not either. What we seem to have here is a lot of people just chomping at the bit to dismantle public education in favor of smaller private instituions that keep their kid away from everyone else's ,good for nothing, kids. The last I checked teachers were paid less than anyother profession for the amount of education required. This is a throw back from the old school marm days when teaching is just what some young ladys did before they were married( like Miss Crabtree on little rascals). Anyways I see you trying to destroy a proffesion that for the most part has always been broke and since Robert stole the "fiddlesticks" comment I say poppycock! Public education is our nations only hope. Enforced parenting is what our kids need not a revamping of the education system by a bunch of folks such as yourself that only think they understand the problem.
Sean

no it doesn't because you want to label or attack me. if you can't participate in a discussion without that, then sit, watch and learn..*G

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Ender
no it doesn't because you want to label or attack me. if you can't participate in a discussion without that, then sit, watch and learn..*G

Oh, and calling everything that you don't like "liberal" is not name calling. What washed up actor is going to save us now Mr. Game?

 

[Touch Of Death]

And would you please point out where I labled and then attacked you. I've been made curious by that paranoid remark.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Ender
EXACTLY!!..there's a reason why private school and home schooled students do better than the public school students.

Could you please provide documentation of research supporting this? I have seen plenty of fantastic public school students, and also plenty of marginal at best private school ones, so I'm not really so sure how true that is.

As for home schooled students, how many of them get the "social education" that comes from being around people like (or even more importantly, unlike) themselves? I personally know of one home schooled individual, who grew up in the same neighborhood I did. He was extremely brilliant, eventually went to Harvard, where he completed an economics degree in three years (i.e. graduated 1 year early) by going to classes through summers as well. After college, he went to law school, where he graduated near the top of his class. Upon graduating, he got a job with a law firm, and was able to last less than a year -- the fact that he had to deal with "other people" drove him to a nervous breakdown, as well as a suicide attempt. He is now perhaps the most highly educated person to ever bag groceries for A&P. Sometimes the ability to get along in society with people different than yourself is just as important as academic success, and that is very hard to replicate in a home-schooled environment.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Ender
*loading my my right wing crap cannon with the mother of all bombs....


oh please, not the education or jail tripe!!!..egads!!

actually there's a greater link between immates in jail and the lack of fathers in the household growing up. If you want to attack the jail issue you would do better to promote mother/father families. I know the PC thing is to say if we educate people there would be less of them in jail. But.......in talking to a Juvenile Probation officer ,who backed up the research I did, He said 75% of these kids come from single parent families. these kids have a lot of hostility directed at the missing parent. now i'm not saying that single parents are bad (before we get these "my mother was a single parent and I turned out ok" stuff. But the fact is that parenting is a tough job and two parent familes are better than one.

an actual incident happened when one chaplain at a jail decided to pass out mother's day card for the inmates to send to their mothers. he had 500 cards and every one was sent out. thinking he would do the same thing come fathers day, he announced he would be giving out cards again. you know how many cards he gave out?...3...what do you think that means? probably that either they don't have contact with their father, or they don't know who their father is, or they hate him.

the link between education and crime is pretty much non existent. there is the same percentage of white collar crime as there is blue collar crime. But, there is a huge link between family units and crime. But I know that would go against every principle the left stands for and so it gets no attention.

And Ender, as teachers, we deal with the children who are a product of this mess everyday -- and have to deal with the lack of respect that comes from them being in this situation, and the frustration that comes from their caregivers "unlearning" everything we teach them in regards to honesty, respect, and hard work. Do you still think that's something anyone with a bachelor's degree can handle?

 

[Ender]

hehehe....ok..where to star..*G

In Calif, all you need to BECOME a teacher is to show a bachelors degree and they will issuse you "emergency credentials" and voila'..you are a teacher. or you can take the CBEST test (which is dreadfully easy). the point is, it is very easy to BECOME a teacher here. now if you become a good one thats another issue. this ease of entering the field leads to lower entrance wages.

ok next....so if i call you a liberal you would take offense???..*L..thats just silly. you can call me a conservative all day long for all i care. You wanted to ask if my children went to a public school or where I taught to make it personal against me. Ender don't play dat!...I will tell you your opinions are wrong, screwed up or whatever, but I don't make it personal....unless or course they become idiots..*L

All the research you need to to look at SAT scores or ACT scores and correlate that data against the schools. you'll find private schools do better. now sure there are some students who do well in public school, but overall private schools do better.

one last note...Calif spends around 10K per student per year. an average of private schools cost about 5-6K, if that much. so, if there are 30 students in a class, thats 30 X 10,000 = 300,000. using one the figures one of you cite at at salary of 32k/year. where does the other 90% (approximately) go?????

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Ender
teaching is a low paid profession because almost anyone can do it and teachers are plentiful. all you need is a bachelor's degree to teach up to a community college level. some teachers only need "industry experience". if the wages for teaching went up dramatically, then current teachers would be driven out of the market by better candidates.

Kobe Bryant makes alot of money because he generate alot of revenue like ticket sales, advertizing, and merchandizing. They aren't paying Kobe to just play basketball, they are paying him to generate cash, which he does.

Well, since I'm a teacher/former coach, the Goldendragon musta put you up to this! LOL (Just teasing)

Better candidates? I'd like to see em. It ain't money, but the bull**** one puts up with.

I face:
* Students, with no manners, no work ethic, poorly raised
* The Parents
* The sometime weak/scared administrators
*The State of Texas, that think they know what they're doing
* The District, a faceless entity who would sacrifice their own mothers, if they thought they could win, and they NEVER ADMIT THAT THEY'RE WRONG!
That last one pisses me off greatly!

I'm now waiting for a teacher to go "postal" with all the BS we gotta go through.

Many teachers themselves are so stressed, they're on meds just to make it through the day.

I ought to know, I'm one of them.

I'm a 22 yr vet, so I can't quit, I got obligations to my family/finances, but what I have done is fight back like a Pit Bull on a chain. Now they think twice!

Now,...... I play to win, I come first above all else. I do my job always, but if ya screw with me...................:samurai:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see. You feel free to insult teachers--about whom you seem not to know very much--but it's not personal.

I realize that it's easier to attack teachers, and to pass everything off as a consequence of politics with which you disagree, than it is to deal with reality, and the way in which we are all implicated in these problems.

However, I repeat: does anybody honestly think that teachers are any more incompetent as a group than, say military procurement officers (the DIVAD/Sgt. York; the B-2; the Bradley...the F-14) and cops (Abner Djaillou ring a bell?)...?

I guarantee you that there are no more phony teachers in public schools, and that the way public schools teach is no more phony, than is the average in martial arts.