Stop crying for teachers

[loki09789]

What was the orginial intent of the poster with this threads starting post?

You started it out with "I just gotta say this" type of language as if you needed to vent about something. I would say that you may have posted facts and figures in an attempt to justify your stance, but in doing so ignored other relevant information that might put a different perspective the issue because you wanted to defend your view. Simply put you were looking for an argument (Whether that means discourse or a verbal scrap I don't know) and you got one. Deal with it.

I, personally would like to see how you respond to some the other 'facts and figures' that people have put forth. Hitting and running is just as much a reflection on the poster as personal attacks...or is that a bigotted attack on an entire professional strata?

I, personally don't give a hang about your facts and figures because they are like kicks and punches - tools to put up a good attack. Only this is a verbal attack/argument and not a physical one. What I do care about is what is your motive/message/theme that you are putting forth and using facts to support? Other people seem to have a different perspective - supported with facts/figures and, I would say a different theme/message/motive.

Your response to these other perspectives would be a nice thing to see:

Run, resist or acknowledge and counterpoint..... all reveal something.

OK, let me repeat what I said. Teachers earn a base salary of $47K for working 5.5 hours per day 180 days per year in their workplace. If they earned the same hourly rate, but worked 7 hours/day, 5 days/week, for 48 weeks, as most full time workers do, that would be equivalent to a base salary of >$80K--a very nice full time salary--plus benefits. Most workers earn more money when they work more hours.

By the way, this is my last post to this thread. I quoted facts and figures, and gave my opinion about those facts and figures, which some of you disagree with, as you have every right to--that's what makes for lively discussion. However, I never made personal cracks directed at individuals, as some of you think is appropriate to direct at me. I don't appreciate it, especially since you people don't even know me. It lowers the level of discourse; makes the originator of the personal comments look small and foolish; and based on the moderators' comments, it is not the intent of this board.

 

[Nightingale]

Most teachers here in California are on a year round schedule. They couldn't have a second job in their off time if they wanted it, because they get two weeks here and there. My salary as a teacher here was $23,000 a year. I took home about $1400 a month, after taxes. I spent close to $1000 on classroom supplies and TEXTBOOKS. My classroom had no books. Since I wanted my students to actually learn something, I had to purchase materials for them to learn from.

My rent was $910 a month, for a small one bedroom apartment in the next county, because I coundn't afford to live in the same county I was teaching in. I had a 60 mile round trip each day to work, and with gasoline at $2.00 a gallon, that added up to at least $150 a month.

My health benefits were AWFUL. I had to pay $100 or so out of my paycheck each month for coverage, plus, since my insurance didn't cover a medication that I need for a chronic stomach problem, I had to pay for that out of my pocket, which was close to $200.00 a month.

Those basic expenses added up to $1360.00. My take-home pay was $1400. that leaves me $40.00 for utilities, food, and other necessities.

The state required that I pay out of my own pocket to take supplementary classes to stay current. I had to take out student loans for these.

I quit teaching because I couldn't afford to stay.

 

[OULobo]

Around here there are no teachers at lunch or recess. That is an aide duty. The teachers for intermurals get overtime and the coaches get a separate salary. The teachers get a stipend for supplies and they are allowed to leave for off periods. The do usually get a union negotiated decent wage, and all the vacation and benefits that come with a decent job.

Now the bad part. They get salary cuts or lay offs on a whim. They have horribly overcrowded classes, they are dealing with increasingly violent children with little protective services. They are required to get a four year degree with student teaching to obtain a license, despite the constistantly top 10 lowest paid 4 yr degree mandatory jobs in almost all areas of the state.

The thing that makes me think they are a little underappreciated is that, in general they don't get that great a salary or benefits for a four year degree mandatory job.

 

[CB2379]

Ok, I am a teacher and I take great offense to what you have said here. Why are you so concerned about how much money a teacher makes anyway? A professional baseball player makes $10,000,000 a year yet the coach that trained him in junior high and high school makes $50,000.

You have said that teachers have all this time off, well let me just say this. When school is in session I work from 6:45 in the morning up until 11:00 at night. Sure I have time to eat, take karate even see my friends occassionally, but everything else is school work. During the weekends, I work, during vacations, I work, during the summer....I work.

Also, how dare you try and make it seem like all we do is teach. We do a lot more that that. Teaching is not a job my friend, it is a life choice. There are many who enter teaching who are simply not cut out to be teachers, but there are also those, like me, who consider this much more than a job. There are weeks that go by in the school year that I forget it is even payday and my check has to be mailed to me.

What we give our children is much more than just a "book" education that really has no price value on it. Why don't we look at how much Larry Tatum gets for one of his seminars -- not to insult Mr. Tatum or anything -- but all he is doing is "teaching". Why is no one up in arms over his salary?

The mere fact that you have the nerve to put up our salary and insurance information is an insult to me and every teacher who read this post. I am sorry that you had a bad experience in school when you went through, but to triviliaze my life based on dollars and cents insults what I do and what every other teacher does.

"The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job."
You must be insane..... I don't know even where to begin with this quote. This statement right here has nullified your argument and everything else you have said. You are clearly thinking irrationally. I won't even get into the sleepness nights I have had worrying about my students passing a test, or staying up until 4:00am planning a lesson that my principal will see to determine if I come back next year. Or even waiting by your computer to receieve an email that one of your students is OK have having some very serious surgery. no of course....flipping burgers is much more stressful. Honestly dude, you really have to think before you speak here....


I don't have to defend my job, my students and what they accomplish later in life will be my defense. Because somehow, I affected that child and inspired them to do something positive in their lives. I have been lucky enough to have been told this by dozens of students I have worked with and I have only been teaching for 3 years now.

But go ahead, put a price tag on how much it is an hour to inspire and touch a life and make a positive change....

Chuck

 

[OULobo]

Ok, I am a teacher and I take great offense to what you have said here. Why are you so concerned about how much money a teacher makes anyway? A professional baseball player makes $10,000,000 a year yet the coach that trained him in junior high and high school makes $50,000.

You have said that teachers have all this time off, well let me just say this. When school is in session I work from 6:45 in the morning up until 11:00 at night. Sure I have time to eat, take karate even see my friends occassionally, but everything else is school work. During the weekends, I work, during vacations, I work, during the summer....I work.

Also, how dare you try and make it seem like all we do is teach. We do a lot more that that. Teaching is not a job my friend, it is a life choice. There are many who enter teaching who are simply not cut out to be teachers, but there are also those, like me, who consider this much more than a job. There are weeks that go by in the school year that I forget it is even payday and my check has to be mailed to me.

What we give our children is much more than just a "book" education that really has no price value on it. Why don't we look at how much Larry Tatum gets for one of his seminars -- not to insult Mr. Tatum or anything -- but all he is doing is "teaching". Why is no one up in arms over his salary?

The mere fact that you have the nerve to put up our salary and insurance information is an insult to me and every teacher who read this post. I am sorry that you had a bad experience in school when you went through, but to triviliaze my life based on dollars and cents insults what I do and what every other teacher does.

"The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job."
You must be insane..... I don't know even where to begin with this quote. This statement right here has nullified your argument and everything else you have said. You are clearly thinking irrationally. I won't even get into the sleepness nights I have had worrying about my students passing a test, or staying up until 4:00am planning a lesson that my principal will see to determine if I come back next year. Or even waiting by your computer to receieve an email that one of your students is OK have having some very serious surgery. no of course....flipping burgers is much more stressful. Honestly dude, you really have to think before you speak here....


I don't have to defend my job, my students and what they accomplish later in life will be my defense. Because somehow, I affected that child and inspired them to do something positive in their lives. I have been lucky enough to have been told this by dozens of students I have worked with and I have only been teaching for 3 years now.

But go ahead, put a price tag on how much it is an hour to inspire and touch a life and make a positive change....

Chuck

You might want to identify who you are railing at. I appreciate your feelings and concerns, and I would understand why the tone of this thread would upset you, but consequently many people believe strongly in their jobs, not just teachers and a teacher's salary and benefits are often public domain in that in many areas they are considered public employees.

 

[Flatlander]

Just to add to that...let's bear in mind that this thread evidently will affect some on a personal level. Let's try to keep it as non personal as possible.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ooooh, yes, yet another group of uppity, overpaid--and quite possibly liberal, if not worse--group that we can talk about ignorantly, and blame all the problems of America upon. Absolutely. I agree.

I am a professional teacher. I teach college. Let me sketch out my last twenty-five years for you. I started college in 1977, and graduated in 1979--during which time I lived on between 220 and 250 dollars a month. But through a combo of grants, loans and work study, I got by fine. Oh yes--had no health care, had no car, had no insurance. Worked about 80-90 hour weeks, happy as a clam. Fair enough.

Took a year off-respiratory tech at Children's Hospital, Denver--then went to grad school. Was very lucky; got into excellent school, got money from 'em, worked 90-110 hour weeks (no, not exaggerating: for openers, reading load was 3000+ pages/week); worked cataloging books, summers, or was off studying at my own expense. Lived on between 333/month and 667/month, no insurance, health care, car, paid all that out of pocket. Started teaching, 1981, did that till I got my doctorate.

Out of grad school--first job offer was--maybe--17, 500 year, to teach four classes, run grad program. Taught in Ohio instead, made 27,000/year. Paid for health insurance. Almost no retirement package. Spent summers, vacations, etc. , writing/researching. Had to moveback to East following year, only one-year job, taught for three years at 26,000/year, much the same conditions. Job ended after 3 years--taught at upstate NY university for 1 year, 24 K/year...

Moved to so Cal. Taught PT for nine years, four different schools, drove about 500-1000 miles/week, paid from 33-52 hour, no health care, etc., grossed maybe...oh...30 K/year.

Finally got FT job; presently make good salary, benefits, no complaints there. My one-way commute is 165 miles, and I drive that twice a week. past spring, taught six classes, served on four committees, plus meetings, plus health insurance consortium rep, plus union negotiation rep.

So after a decade of colleges, a PhD, twenty years' teaching, I make a little over 60 K per year and have good benefits. Ooooh, end of world. I'm lucky; if I were in Arizona or Colorado, I'd make around 30-35/year, worse benefits.

I resent this kind of ignorant crap--and that is exactly what it is.

It's not only ignorant because it shows an utter lack of understanding of reality, it's ignorant because it shows that you're not asking the right questions: a) why am I treated so badly that I'm jealous and angry about somebody else getting a half-decent deal? b) why do I blame teachers, when the Trumps and Murdochs and Bushes of the world are grossly overrewarded for their absurd actions? c) why do I have such a hard time with the notion that people who work deserve a decent life--not infinite riches, but decent? d) why have I bought the guff and propaganda that's been shoved at me by the likes of Michael Savage?

Feel free to take this personally. I've about had it with the kind of intellectually lazy attacks on perfectly decent people, their character, their professions, their ideas, their patriotism, their morality, that passes around these days, followed by quick claims of, "But I don't mean anything personal!!" My *** you don't.

What's worse is the utter lack of knowledge, or thought, or--worst of all--introspection and observation that such posts reveal.

It shows up a lot in the martial arts. One of the things those oft-despised kata are for is to teach us to look honestly at ourselves at at the world. Too many, "martial artists," avoid this, and fall into dishonesty.

And that's what's happened here. Get a grip; learn about the world, learn who you really are. It ain't easy, but it shure am ediccational.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well...

Ive never been a teacher... so I wont say anything about that...

But I have been a Burger flipper, amongst many other "Customer Service" Jobs...

And if you guys dont consider 3-4 people per shift SCREAMING at you for somthing that you had no contoll over, with a follow up "discussion" about why the 3-4 customers screamed at YOU from your supervisor as a stressfull situation, your freakin nuts.

If there is one thing I have learned, it's that Customers all feel "entitiled" and if they dont get what they want, when they want it, regardless of how assinie it is... and that poor burger flipper who is getting railed on cannot send the customer to the principles office for acting up.

ANY customer service job is a STRESSFUL Job. Food for thought.

 

[pete]

could this be brad hamilton? employee of the month at all american burger?
.. sorry, just had a flash back to fast times at ridgemont high (one of the top ten movies of all time)... didn't he become a teacher?

aloha,
mr hand...

 

[MisterMike]

My wife will be working towards her Masters to become a teacher. One of the overlooked pre-req's to becoming an underpaid teacher. Maybe some day she can aspire to teach high school for a whopping 28-32K. Bottom line is you have to love that kind of job to do it and we're pissin off the few remaining who really do.

I went to school for engineering. Got out, found nothin' so I made BALL BEARINGS for a year and a half on 3rd shift for $11/hr. Found an engineering aide job for $10/hour, 50 miles each way but it was in my field so I jumped for it. Enjoyed the software I was using to help pave paradise so I decided to give the techie route a try. Was extatic to get 24k a year. Company got sold, new one said we were underpaid and bumped us up to 35k. The thing is, I did esentially nuthing but "play grown up video games" as I like to call it from 9-5 and come home and forget the day while my wife was trying to pick which school she'd like to work at from 7am to 10pm correcting papers for less pay.

Teachers are underpaid.

And yes, for those who know me here, she's on the other end of my political spectrum. Who says opposites don't attract Someone's gotta keep me in check.

 

[michaeledward]

And yes, for those who know me here, she's on the other end of my political spectrum. Who says opposites don't attract Someone's gotta keep me in check.

Your wife is a damn fine woman, and I have always said so.

:cheers:

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Just to add to that...let's bear in mind that this thread evidently will affect some on a personal level.

You got that right.

MisterMike wrote:

Teachers are underpaid.

And yes, for those who know me here, she's on the other end of my political spectrum. Who says opposites don't attract Someone's gotta keep my in check.


THANK YOU, Mister Mike. I never thought we'd find anything to which we'd agree, but this may be it.

My compliments to your wife. Sounds like you two got a James Carville/Mary Matelin thing going...with the roles reversed, of course.


Regards,

Steve

 

[PeachMonkey]

ANY customer service job is a STRESSFUL Job. Food for thought.

Customer service jobs are *definitely* stressful. But, when your shift ends, and you finally get out of there, you don't have to spend a minute thinking about your job. I've worked fast food as a cook and dishwasher, bussed tables, waited tables... lots of jobs. I'm the type to stress somewhat about interpersonal issues on the job, but beyond that, I didn't give my work a second thought outside of the workplace.

Teachers, however, clearly have a *much* higher level of emotional investment. To claim otherwise (and I know you weren't, Technopunk, but others in this thread have) is simply ignorant.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Customer service jobs are *definitely* stressful. But, when your shift ends, and you finally get out of there, you don't have to spend a minute thinking about your job. I've worked fast food as a cook and dishwasher, bussed tables, waited tables... lots of jobs. I'm the type to stress somewhat about interpersonal issues on the job, but beyond that, I didn't give my work a second thought outside of the workplace.

Teachers, however, clearly have a *much* higher level of emotional investment. To claim otherwise (and I know you weren't, Technopunk, but others in this thread have) is simply ignorant.

Good point, Peachmonkey. Welcome back.

My wife worked customer service. So did I. Got screamed at, too...both of us. She took great umbrage to your suggestion that flipping burgers was more stressful.

As a burger flipper, how many funerals did you go to when your customers died, Technopunk? I've lost count of the number of funerals my wife has attended...all for those kids of hers that have died over the years. Car wrecks, drug overdoses, cystic fibrosis...

I find it hard to believe that kids like these don't live "rent free" in her heart and mind.



Regards,

Steve

 

[loki09789]

Teachers, however, clearly have a *much* higher level of emotional investment. To claim otherwise (and I know you weren't, Technopunk, but others in this thread have) is simply ignorant.

Amen to that. I know that many people take a lot of personal pride in their job performance and their work 'reputation' and they should, a solid work ethic is a good thing to have. My wife works very hard at her job doing something that I just don't understand with lab procedures and such, but I can at least recognize the pride and desire to do a good job if I can't recognize all the jargon - but I know that she feels the same way about my 'teacher talk.'

Relatively speaking (and maybe a little campy too) though, my father never came home from work talking about "his door panels" or "his dyesets" I have rarely, if ever, heard anyone talk about that "one perfect burger" that just made their day.

I have heard teachers talk about "their kids" to the point of driving those around them crazy because it leaves a reaction much like when new parents talk about "their baby." Teaching is a different kind of job that is as much about making positive personal connections/impressions as it is about teaching any content area.

The simplest message I got from my teacher training was to "Leave the world better than you found it." I would hope that everyone strives for that, but I don't know too many jobs that include that idea in the job description/goals.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

but consequently many people believe strongly in their jobs, not just teachers and a teacher's salary and benefits are often public domain in that in many areas they are considered public employees.

First let me say I think you are you are right that teacher's are not the only ones who value their work, and to me anyone who takes pride in what they do and works hard and with passion is deserving. It's just interesting to me that for some reason teachers' salaries/benefits seem to be more subject to this type of debate. I am a certified teacher in NY and I have to say that rarely have I heard this argument concerning any other profession or seem such scrutiny over the salaries/benefits of other public servants. It's even evidenced here by the fact that the salaries are printed for all to see. In one of the districts I taught in during school budget voting time teachers/administrators salaries were printed on flyers that were put on people's front lawns. I personally have never seen this done to any one else in the public sector. Ask yourself how this would make you feel? I often wonder if it's because most people have children and possibly grandchildren or at least have been to school themselves and have an emotional link to teachers that they do not have to other public servants.

When children fail in school teachers are held accountable, regardless of parental involvement in a child's overall development. There are lots of misconceptions I think. Most of which have been addressed here, and many of which I would have hesitated to argue as a brand new teacher. When I first started out if I found myself in a social setting with new people, especially if they had school aged children, I swear I would hesitate to say that I was a teacher. It seems that almost everyone you meet has at least one complaint about a teacher their child has had not doing their job or being way overpaid or having so many vacations etc.,. ironically to me, rarely did you hear that in some way the parents' shared the responsibility. Sometimes it personally didn't seem worth the confrontations. I worked so hard at my profession and found it exhausting to have to then explain/defend it all to parents, especially to those whose children I'd never taught.

The fact of the matter is teachers like anyone are human beings and some are much better than others. However, in my own experience there have only been a few teachers who did not do their job well, or who rested on their laurels or perhaps should have considered retirement a bit sooner. Most teachers that I know though, and have worked alongside of, are passionate, caring people who are certainly not in it for the money! My plumber, who will never have to pay back a college loan, and who believe me I value, drives a beautiful BMW. I'm quite sure I will never own one of those. The thing is he, like anyone else, has a right to earn a good living why shouldn't a teacher be afforded that same right?

I think the scrutiny reflects a sign of the times we live in as well. I've noticed that when people are getting laid off from their jobs and their 401Ks are dwindling that that seems to be the time these issues arise most or become magnified. Unfortunately our taxes go up every year and in NY anyway federal aid to school districts has been dramatically cut over the years. That has to be made up for somewhere. You just can't blame teachers for hard times or taxes. We don't make the laws or drive the economy - we are also subject to hard times and lay offs and must also pay our taxes as well.

There just are so many things that are misunderstood concerning teachers and the work that they do. My first job was in a private school and paid me less than $14,000 a year. It was the best job I've ever had! I loved the children, I worked there for four years, and had 24 children in my care and probably spent almost $500 that year on supplies for the classroom. I worked very hard there cleaning and preparing. Most days I would put in three to six extra hours in my preparation, and often would get up in the middle of the night to act on an idea for the next day. It was about opening young minds and touching lives. The school was forced to close because they could not afford to stay open. The cost of living in NY is very high, and I could not afford much of anything on that salary, but I would have stayed if the doors were open. When I got my first public school job, aside from being put through a very stressful selection process just to get the job, I accepted less than the offered salary. Teaching is a noble profession, and speaking for myself financial gain is not the targeted reward!:asian:

 

[Flatlander]

Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience. Yet, I have 2 things to say.

I could never be a teacher. I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.

Whoever has the good fortune of being a teacher to my daughter will have the honor of holding my very close counsel, and my utmost respect. We shall become partners toward a common goal wherein I must trust their judgement, and mind their reccommendations.

I shall.:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience. Yet, I have 2 things to say.

I could never be a teacher. I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.

Whoever has the good fortune of being a teacher to my daughter will have the honor of holding my very close counsel, and my utmost respect. We shall become partners toward a common goal wherein I must trust their judgement, and mind their reccommendations.

I shall.:asian:

My wife would love to have more parents out there with that attitude...what teacher wouldn't?


Regards,


Steve

 

[Sarah]

I don’t think teaching is a career you would enter into if you wonted to get rich, if that is a teachers driving force then they are probably not paying attention to the kids and is in the wrong place.

Of course that is not to say they shouldn’t be paid well, but they do know what they are getting into when they choose to do it.

I take my hat off the teachers, nurses, firemen, policemen etc etc because they choose to put other before themselves.

 

[loki09789]

Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience. Yet, I have 2 things to say.

I could never be a teacher. I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.

Whoever has the good fortune of being a teacher to my daughter will have the honor of holding my very close counsel, and my utmost respect. We shall become partners toward a common goal wherein I must trust their judgement, and mind their reccommendations.

I shall.:asian:

Teachers, to a certain legal/philosophical degree, are "parents" to all their students because legally they are considered "In locus Parenti" or legal guardians while students are in the building or on school grounds so your "partners" reference is nice to see.