Teachers Discussion

[Ender]

teaching is a low paid profession because almost anyone can do it and teachers are plentiful. all you need is a bachelor's degree to teach up to a community college level. some teachers only need "industry experience". if the wages for teaching went up dramatically, then current teachers would be driven out of the market by better candidates.

Kobe Bryant makes alot of money because he generate alot of revenue like ticket sales, advertizing, and merchandizing. They aren't paying Kobe to just play basketball, they are paying him to generate cash, which he does.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Ender
teaching is a low paid profession because almost anyone can do it and teachers are plentiful. all you need is a bachelor's degree to teach up to a community college level. some teachers only need "industry experience". if the wages for teaching went up dramatically, then current teachers would be driven out of the market by better candidates.

Oh man....I can't believe you just went there...

Um....Robert? I'll just sit back and watch the fight. opcorn:

 

[Ender]

*LOL...well??..it's true.....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yeah Paul I see it...now...lead it...what's the wind? OK...

"teaching is a low paid profession because almost anyone can do it and teachers are plentiful. all you need is a bachelor's degree to teach up to a community college level. some teachers only need "industry experience". if the wages for teaching went up dramatically, then current teachers would be driven out of the market by better candidates."

I quite agree about the reasons for Mr. Bryant's salary, to begin within. Indeed, that was my point: glad you agree.

As for the assertion that, "almost anyone can do it." Sure, right. How well? I take it that you don't teach.

I'm trying to think of how to say this without tooting my own horn...well, after two and a half years undergrad, seven grad (at an Ivy League school, I might add) twenty years' teaching at university, college, and community college, my society values my education, experience and expertise at approximately 1/100th the level it values that of a basketball player less than half my age.

This may be a testimony to my society's love of money, but it sure as hell isn't testimony to anything resembling fairness or any rationality other than that of the market. You may be OK with the notion that Only Money Really Counts: I am not.

Let me add that an important reason for low teachers' salaries lies in a) a history of teaching being done at the lower levels predominantly by women; b) our country's ongoing refusal to decently fund public education.

I make a comfortable-enough living, no question about that. My question is, why ain't that enough for everybody? Answer: because we've built a world in which things and dollars matter more than people.

 

[Ender]

well california pays at, or near the top per pupil in the nation, and we are just about dead last in ranking. So no, funding is not the issue. lots of teachers try to point the blame there, but there is no scientific or statistical evidence that increased funding will lead to increased scores or grades.

and most of California's teachers have a bachelors of arts degree or in education. many of them can barely pass an algrebra class required at the university level. So my statement still stands, almost any university graduate can teach.

I have a teacher friend, she teaches 2nd grade at the local elementary school with 5 years experience. she received a BS in liberals arts, and makes $62k a year working 9 months. she says teaching isn't very difficult but the bureacracy and the union is what is killing education.

This is a capitalistic society built on competition and freedom. They tried building one on "worker's right and socialisitc values". it failed miserably.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, Ender, but I just rechecked on the LAUSD, the California State Dept. of Ed., and the US Dept. of Education, websites. Your figures are grossly inaccurate.

I might also suggest that if your friend really has such contempt for their job, they should quit doing it.

I realize, of course, that this won't change your mind a bit. And that's OK.

Education has a lot of problems. These include bureaucracy, and the ineptitude of teachers. They also include the politicization of schools by right-wingers, the commercialization of schools by corporate interests, the systematic gutting of the curriculum by those who are afraid their kids might learn about reality (you know...evolution...the holocaust...the Vietnam War), and the systematic retreat from funding the sort of public education I got, free more or less, as a kid.

In California, for example, the so-called "taxpayers' revolt," led directly to the collapse of a public education system that was nearly without peer in the world.

So I'll confront the errors of the ways of unions and lefties...a long list......if you'll agree to deal with fiscal reality, and the looniness of right-wingers these days...

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Ender
and most of California's teachers have a bachelors of arts degree or in education. many of them can barely pass an algrebra class required at the university level. So my statement still stands, almost any university graduate can teach.

Ender:

Sorry to call you out on this one, but you are just plain wrong. I am a teacher, and like in any profession, I have dealt with people of various competency levels -- some brilliant, some so spastic that I was amazed they made it to work with two pairs of shoes on. They all had "university degrees" - some a few of them. A "university degree" may be your entrance to the classroom, but not everyone who has one can teach. If you are arguing that they have the competency level in their chosen subject to spit out info about their subject, than fine, I agree with you. However, teaching is a heck of a lot more than just subject level competency. At heart, it is a profession that requires an almost ridiculous amount of patience -- children, parents, administrators, and sometimes even complete strangers all put up every obstacle possible to prevent you from succeeding. Those who do not have a sincere love for what they do, as well as a genuine desire for helping children, will not last, period. There are plenty of people out there with "university degrees" in a variety of subjects -- but there are a precious few that combine that desire with the level of patient that is necessary, as well as the amount of concern that is crucial, to succeed in the profession.

BTW -- your friend is not a typical example. I teach in NJ, which has the highest average teacher salary in the U.S. ($51K per last year's figures) -- the average starting salary is about $32K. After 5 years, the average teacher makes between 40 and 45K, depending on the district - it varies widely, but I can tell you that nobody in NJ with 5 years experience is making $62K, even if they have a doctorate. Most districts top out at below 80K, and that's only with a doctorate and 20+ years of service. That's all well and good, and probably sounds like a lot of money to people in quite a few states out there, but you must take cost of living into account. The average NJ worker makes $65K, and that takes into account the southern part of the state as well, where salaries are much lower. If you were only to count northern and central NJ, some people believe the average is closer to $80K. So the average teacher makes a little over half of what the average worker makes. And we trust them with our kids.

And no disrespect, but if your friend says teaching isn't very difficult, my guess is she isn't doing her job nearly as well as she thinks she is.

 

[Ender]

Victor High School / Victor Junior High School

Band Resource Specialist

Math


Silverado High School / Cobalt Middle School

Band

Physical Education

Specialist Mild/Moderate



Must hold or be eligible for the appropriate certification to serve in the listed area.



Salary Placement Commensurate with experience $33,648 - $67,296

Maximum salary placement step 9 for new hires

Salary will be prorated for actual days, based on annual shown.


Benefits District-paid medical, dental and vision benefits for employees and family: life insurance for employee only.



Closing Date Open Until Filled
..................................................................................................

looks like they are paying PE teachers between 33 to 67K...hmmmm....guess my figures aren't as "grossly inaccurate" as you thought.


and my friend was awarded top teacher at her school....then it again, it could be too easy for her?*G..and btw she got to 62K after 4 years experience...and her husband is a vice principle at 107K at a different school. now try to tell me educators are under paid. I don't buy it.


my solution would be to not make school compulsory after 12 years old. all those students who cause trouble or don't want to be there may be excused from school. if after an expulsion, they must pay tuiton as a private school to regain entrance. I bet you'll see alot more parental involvment. no where in the constitution is an education a right. it is a privilege and must be treated as such.

 

[pknox]

Dude - The 67K is for top of the range. That is someone with the highest step, which is usually 20+ years. That's also why they say the max salary step is 9. That should be someone with about 9 years experience. If you have 20 years experience, and you shift districts, you get paid like you have 9 in this case. That max number would only be for someone with the highest placement (def above 9) - and could only be internal to the district (i.e. not a new hire). It also is the range for ALL of the positions, not each one. My guess is the top is for the Specialist, because that sounds like a Special Ed position, which most districts have trouble filling, due to the nature of the job.

A vice principal making 107K is not out of line. They need to have at least 5 yrs experience (usually WAY more, but the book says 5 -- I've never seen a VP hired without at least 15 yrs on the job), usually require a masters degree, work year round, and have the most cruddy job around (besides perhaps the principal, who is paid more). Does the average teacher make close to that? No.

As for the teacher of the year thing, let me just say that doen't always go to the best teacher, but sometimes the one that plays the game the best. Perhaps your friend is a wonderful teacher, and has natural talent for it. That doesn't mean everybody does. I bet for Arnisador, multivariable calculus is easy, but it makes my head spin. Different people have different strengths. My point is that just like not everybody can be a mathematician, not everyone can be a teacher. At least not a good one.

 

[pknox]

Here's something else I was sent a while ago, that perhaps is relevant to the discussion...


TIRED OF THOSE HIGH PAID TEACHERS?!

I, for one, am sick and tired of those high-paid teachers. Their hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work nine or ten months a year!

It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do...baby-sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage. That's right......I would give them $3.00 dollars an hour and only the hours they worked, not any of that silly planning time. That would be 15 dollars a day.

Each parent should pay 15 dollars a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now, how many do they teach in a day....maybe 25. Then that's 15 X 25=$375 a day. But remember they only work 180 days a year! I'm not going to pay them for any vcations. Let's see...that's 375 x180=$67,500.00 (Hold on, my calculator must need batteries!)

What about those special teachers or the ones with masters degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage just to be fair. Let's round it off to $6.00 an hour. That would be $6 times 5 hours times 25 children times 180 days =$135,000.00 per year.

Wait a minute, there is something wrong here!!!

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by pknox
Here's something else I was sent a while ago, that perhaps is relevant to the discussion...

Nice post! It sure makes you think... It bugs me when people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars to go see a sports team play, but complain when they have to pay $50 for a school book. Are we so lame that we'd pay anything to be entertained, but God help us if we do something to improve society?

WhiteBirch

 

[Ender]

Pknox:

dude, keep up with the convo...I said my friend was making 62K after 5 years experience!!..and her hubby was vp at 8 years experience making over 100K. My point is that teachers are not necessarily as under paid as everyone thinks. yes , the STARTING salaries at pretty low, but they do that purposely do weed people out.

 

[pknox]

Yes -- I'm aware of her experience level as you stated. That is why I posted starting and average salaries. But also look at the ad you posted:

Salary Placement Commensurate with experience $33,648 - $67,296

Maximum salary placement step 9 for new hires

And as I said, realize that is a range...if you don't believe me about that being the top of the range and being likely 20+ years of experience, that's fine (realize though, that while pursuing a job as a teacher, I have literally read THOUSANDS of these ads, and have responded to dozens of them, and in every case, was told that the salary range reflected all positions in the ad, and that the top salary was the top of the range). Look at the ad then. It says max salary placement = step 9. Even if you believe that the $67K is for step 9, your friend should not be at step 9 after 5 years with a B.S. She should be at step 5, step 6 tops.

If she does make that much money (and Ender, don't misunderstand me here - I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm sure she does make that as you said - I'm just saying it's not a normal representative figure in my experience), and if there are many others like her, than Cali is not a very good representative example of the nation as a whole. Most teachers have to work at least 10-15 years to make the kind of money you're friend is making with a B.S./B.A. - if they get an advanced degree, perhaps they can cut that down to 8-10. And I'm talking about historically high paying states like NJ, CT, PA, and VA -- not states like AK, MS, or LA, where a teacher will likely never make that much, regardless of time in, due to the lower cost of living. Realize also that in the private sector, with jobs that require a bachelors degree, the salary level to experience level ratio is about the same, if not lower for the teachers (think what a web designer with 10 years experience makes vs. teachers in the area).

If she does make that, maybe she is in a special demand position, and/or works in an area with a very high cost of living, or has some other special situation with her district. I hope you are right though -- if teachers in Cali make that after 5 yrs, I'm seriously considering moving there. As if the constant sunshine and Gracie Academy weren't enough, a higher salary would very much sweeten the deal.

And as for the VP, realize that he is not a teacher with classroom duties -- he is an administrator, with completely different responsibilities and criteria for his job. Again, think about what is done in the private sector. It is all a matter of supply and demand, as well as society's perceived worth of a profession. When I worked for an Internet company, I pulled in close to 70K, and the project managers above me made between 100 and 110K. My teaching job was infinitely harder than my Internet one (not to mention more important, as I didn't hold children's futures in my hand when supervising web page design), and the PM's above me had a MUCH easier job than any VP I've ever met. Part of the proof of this is the fact that even at 110K+ for VP's, most districts have problems filling the job and keeping people, because the job sucks and nobody wants it.

 

[Ender]

California spends near the top per pupil yet we rank near the bottom. Yet I keep hearing we need to increase money into the system. If this was run as a business with competition, salaries, etc, then this system would be bankrupt.

The other day I had to talk to someone who is in charge of refrigerators for the cafeterias of LAUSD. I then wanted to talk about a freezer and I had to talk to someone else in charge of freezers!!!...wtf?...do we really need two bureaucrats to handle refrigeration needs??

step 1-9 is ALSO way to provide "incentive" levels for teachers. Meaning you can move up in pay with better performance. And I agree with that, people should be paid for superior job skills . So a good teacher can make a good salary here. But don't try to tell me they are terribly underpaid.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, that was self-contradicting.

Teachers are overpaid, well, no they're not, but we underpay them to weed them out so we can overpay them.

I also note that you conveniently skipped over all the other little issues I mentioned...for example, the rightist attack on education. Or the historical fact that the underpayment of grade school teachers dates back to when they were mostly women...

Please prove to me that teachers are paid better yet more corrupt, lazier, or generally indifferent than, say, CEOs and military procurement officers...

It's sure easier to blame, them, though, what with schools being hotbeds of lesbian ideology and America-bashing...just wanted to mention it first, since I'm sure it was coming.

I repeat: if you'r friends are really that incompetent, cynicical and indifferent, your proper moral course is to advise them to quit.

I repeat: you don't teach, do you?

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Ender
step 1-9 is ALSO way to provide "incentive" levels for teachers. Meaning you can move up in pay with better performance. And I agree with that, people should be paid for superior job skills . So a good teacher can make a good salary here. But don't try to tell me they are terribly underpaid.

OK. Then California is a bad example. As for where I live, they are underpaid. It is quite possible that the CA system is rife with corruption and redundancy, which would go a long way in explaining the higher salaries. It would also go a long way in explaining the situation they are currently in, so I don't doubt it.

BTW -- notice I never said your friend was overpaid, just she made more than normal. Personally, I think she deserves $62K for what she does, even with 5 years of experience. Think of it this way - if I'm a web producer with 5 yrs in making 62K and I decide to blow off a client, so what. They get pissed, go somewhere else, and eventually get what they want. However, as a teacher, if I decide to give up on your kid, then I may very well have ruined his life, or at least severely reduced his chances of future success. Considering the amount of responsibility that assumes, who would you rather pay more? The basic comparison is this: the first person makes money, while the second one makes a difference.

 

[khadaji]

teaching is a low paid profession because almost anyone can do it and teachers are plentiful. all you need is a bachelor's degree to teach up to a community college level. some teachers only need "industry experience". if the wages for teaching went up dramatically, then current teachers would be driven out of the market by better candidates.

not to repeat or anything, but that is crazy. I am no expert nation wide, but, in MN, You need a lot of training, and certification to Teach, oh, and a full degree...

As one who has done all the work to become a teacher, I find the comment that anyone can do it insulting.

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by khadaji
I am no expert nation wide, but, in MN, You need a lot of training, and certification to Teach, oh, and a full degree...

That is pretty indicative of how it works nationwide as well. While the different test(s) you must take vary widely by state, as far as I know, every state requires at least one certification test (many require two or even three), a bachelors degree is required for all but the most non-academic subjects (agriculture, industrial arts, and driver education for example- and most states prefer you have one even in those cases, as they like to hire teachers for those subjects only when they have certification in another area as well, as it is more cost effective than hiring two teachers) - a liberal arts one will suffice for elementary education, but if you wish to teach on the secondary level (9th-12th), you must have a degree, or at the very least, "significant coursework" (the definition of which varies by state, here in NJ it is 30 credits) in the subject area in which you plan to teach. Applicants must either have graduated from an accredited teaching college, or in the case of "alternate route" applicants (not allowed in every state) complete a few classes of education-specific classwork (unpaid, and on their own time, usually weekends or evenings - many districts require you pay for the classes, some foot the bill) and a mentoring experience within the first year of teaching. Even if you have graduated from a teacher's college, you must complete the mentoring experience (which you also pay for through payroll deduction). My state (NJ) also requires that applicants submit to a criminal background check and be fingerprinted -- I'm not sure if every state follows suit, but I believe most do.

All in all, it's actually a pretty complex process, and does take a bit of time to complete.

 

[qizmoduis]

School teachers do not work 9 months and get a 3 month vacation. That's a crock. School years are generally 9.5 to 10 months. My district (my daughter's in first grade) goes from the last week of Auguest to the end of the second week of June, leaving 8 weeks of no school.

The teachers don't just quit on the last day of school. My mother was the secretary of the school in my old neighborhood in Altoona. The school building itself didn't empty until the end of June. The teachers came back at the beginning of August to begin preparations for the new school year.

So, perhaps they get 4-5 weeks of vacation per year, which is not too uncommon among salaried professionals. It's more than I get, true.

Ender is just projecting the typical right-wing anti-education mindset that has plagued our education system for decades now. Every time they get into power, their first target is an area's school systems. Children, of course, don't vote. It's much easier to lead an uneducated populace than an educated one. When poorly educated children age into ignorant adults, you have a much easier time getting re-elected and getting your pet pork projects rammed through the system.

As to the idea that almost anyone can be a teacher: Bull[censored].

 

[MisterMike]

Ender is just projecting the typical right-wing anti-education mindset that has plagued our education system for decades now. Every time they get into power, their first target is an area's school systems. Children, of course, don't vote. It's much easier to lead an uneducated populace than an educated one. When poorly educated children age into ignorant adults, you have a much easier time getting re-elected and getting your pet pork projects rammed through the system.

I think right-wing folk are more supportive of Private education than feeding the failing public education facilities. To say anti-education is inaccurate.

I also don't think the politicians have to worry about leading the uneducated since most liberals for opening our boarders and aiding the "undocumented immigrants" (ILLEGAL Aliens). That is where they wish to derrive their voting base.