Teacher Who Let Students "Vote Out" 5 y.o. with Asperger's Syndrome Gets Job Back

[LuckyKBoxer]

16 five year olds in one class, wow, no wonder they had trouble!!

LuckKboxer, do you drink an huge amount of coffee? thats some astringent posting!

Guilty as charged..... but I think more then the coffee is the fact that I just get so tired of having conversations with people who seem to choose to ignore certain parts of the conversation, or add things that were never said to try to make a point, or try to lump people into a certain category to try to label them as something to justify not listening, or worse, to accuse them of some type of villainy....racist, sexism, any ism actually.
It seems to be the tool of choice for alot of people now days, and its just pathetic.

 

[KELLYG]

From a Teacher's point of view she was probable out of options as to how to handle the child. If, in previous post it is suggested that the child go through screening processes to determined a "special needs" child and the parent can over rule the screening process, coupled with the fact that the schools (especially around here) are laying off teachers and increasing class sizes, she probably did not have the support or back up she needed to handle this problem. I thought when I read the article at first that he child was being permanently removed from the class but if he was being sent out side to cool his heels so to speak what's the big deal. As for the public dressing down by his peers, some times a child will make positive behavior changes at the request of there peers vs an adult. Has he been formally diagnosed as of yet?

From a student's point of view. When I went Through school there was usually 25 to 30 kids in class. If one or two of them were as disruptive as this child was/is then we would not be able to get anything accomplished. The classes that I took were run at a slow speed anyway. It would take 6 mo to review one play that I read in a weekend so I could not imagine how slowly the class would move along with several disruptive children in it.
As far as being sent out of class I can remember being sent out of class a time or two and it did noting to damage my self esteem.

This child needs to be place in a situation that honers him as well as his fellow students, that does not mean main stream school environment. He was probably not getting what he really needed out of class either.

 

[shesulsa]

Guilty as charged..... but I think more then the coffee is the fact that I just get so tired of having conversations with people who seem to choose to ignore certain parts of the conversation, or add things that were never said to try to make a point, or try to lump people into a certain category to try to label them as something to justify not listening, or worse, to accuse them of some type of villainy....racist, sexism, any ism actually.
It seems to be the tool of choice for alot of people now days, and its just pathetic.

It also seems personal attacks are becoming fashionable.

It seemed to me we were discussing whether what this teacher did was right or not. You posted your opinion, I posted mine.

There are numerous values (as well as drawbacks, as I pointed out) I see in having a challenging child in a classroom. From your vehement posts, it sounds like none of these values would ring any truth for you, so my opinion was stated.

I'm not sure what it is you want me to have backbone for. I have not insinuated anything, I have not accused you of anything. I stated my opinion based on the observation of your post. Why personally attack me?

 

[jim777]

But not, "I'm sorry."

Pax,

Chris

That would practically be an admission of guilt in a civil suit, so it was never going to happen.

 

[sempai little1]

The kids to blame, the teachers to blame, the schools to blame. Are we missing someone, oh right the parents.

My son has ADD, it was said by the Doctor that is was the most sever case he has had to deal with.
That beind said. I fought tooth and nail to get my son the help he needed without being pulled from a mainstream class.
It took about a year to get all the peices of the puzzle to fall into place, but now he is an A,B student in his mainstream class. The teacher enjoys having him around. He has a unique outlook on things, "an out of the box thinker".

The parent has to fight for teacher aids, mentors, assisted learning tools like computers and quite test areas.

I know ADD is not Asperger's syndrome, but the same basic priciples apply. If the parents want mainstream classes for thier child they have to be the ones responcible for his and his classmates learning enviroment. They have to fight, because if they wont who will?

I get what Luckyboxer is saying, it is painfully unfair for students to have to deal with a troubled child, and the kids should have a say. Not so much in the finger pointing way they did do it.

I'm lost for anymore words. I don't know how to fix the problem, I just know it wont fix itself.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

 

[shesulsa]

From a Teacher's point of view she was probable out of options as to how to handle the child. If, in previous post it is suggested that the child go through screening processes to determined a "special needs" child and the parent can over rule the screening process, coupled with the fact that the schools (especially around here) are laying off teachers and increasing class sizes, she probably did not have the support or back up she needed to handle this problem. I thought when I read the article at first that he child was being permanently removed from the class but if he was being sent out side to cool his heels so to speak what's the big deal. As for the public dressing down by his peers, some times a child will make positive behavior changes at the request of there peers vs an adult. Has he been formally diagnosed as of yet?

From a student's point of view. When I went Through school there was usually 25 to 30 kids in class. If one or two of them were as disruptive as this child was/is then we would not be able to get anything accomplished. The classes that I took were run at a slow speed anyway. It would take 6 mo to review one play that I read in a weekend so I could not imagine how slowly the class would move along with several disruptive children in it.

Inclusion has arisen because in many cases it makes the difference between a productive, contributing member of society and a homicidal menace or state hospital vegetable. I suppose we could return to just warehousing everyone who doesn't fit inside the box in these homes ... but at what cost - both economically and socially?

That said, inclusion doesn't work for everyone and teachers without support will go to lengths they probably ought not to.

I think many can learn faster alone than in a class and I don't think it takes a special ed student to slow that process down.

As far as being sent out of class I can remember being sent out of class a time or two and it did noting to damage my self esteem.

With all due respect, I really don't think you understand the dynamics of Asperger's Syndrome and how this particular incident took place (according to the press I've been able to find on it).

This child needs to be place in a situation that honers him as well as his fellow students, that does not mean main stream school environment. He was probably not getting what he really needed out of class either.

That remains to be seen - he is still in the diagnostic process, apparently, and he's only five years old.

What we can say with clarity, though, is that this teacher was not supported nor trained appropriately for the task of teaching in this inclusion environment. I also have huge issues with other classmates - especially five-year-olds - deciding the consequences for behavior of any other child. They might have you hanged if you wear purple more than one day in a row.

 

[blindsage]

God forbid we incorporate people with special needs into our 'normal' system. God forbid we (and our children) learn compassion and social/communication skills for dealing with people different from us. No, let's go back to isolating them and treating them like outcasts, because let's face it, they deserve it. They're bad kids acting bad, they should be ostracized.

 

[jim777]

What an insightful day this teacher gave to her students.

Banish the different guilt free through strength in numbers in the morning, finger paint in the afternoon. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to which lesson learned will stick with those kids the longest?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

There is no excuse to have a child stand in front of a class and have his fellow classmates put him down. Especially a child suffering from something like Asperger's syndrome. That is a terrible lesson to teach children about intolerance and bullying let alone how it crushes this child's self esteem and social skills with peers his age.

The teacher should have used other means of interaction such as a study partner,a teacher's aide,special classes, anything but this type of treatment.

 

[KELLYG]

Is it better to have a student in and environment that is counter productive for him and his fellow students or an environment with people trained and that have the tools necessary to better a student with challenges.
I do not support isolation or putting children in box's or institutions because they are different. I feel strongly that students get most of their education in the school house why hinder some students education at the expense of others. Who are you serving then. At some point there are 15 children not getting the education that they need as well as 1 student that is not getting the help they need. I have a brother that was diagnosed with ADD and was highly intelligent. As a student and instead of challenging him to keep his focus, intrest, and attention he was mainstreamed and his obvious differences, from other students and there responses, did more to destroy his self esteem than if he was placed with a group of students and instructors with the knowledge to help him.

 

[shesulsa]

Indeed - inclusion doesn't work for everyone.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Wow
Where to start....
Ok Shesulsa..
I am specifically talking about the comments you made.. the one about the herd... and thousands being left behind.... which is simply not true.
and then your last comment specifically about me finding no value in the child.
Thats simply something you made up to make me look like a bad guy.

You also made mention that the teacher should take a year or three off and learn about this and other syndromes...

Thats ridiculous.

Our teachers should be experts in their given subjects.
I have views on what that should be at different ages and grades, but regardless I do not think that trying to make every teacher take a few more years of study to become knowledgable in these syndromes is the way to go, and is just getting away from what they should be doing...
TEACHING.
You are wanting to make the teachers into Teachers, Mothers, Fathers, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Doctors, Nurses, Politicians, Cooks, Coaches, etc.
Lets let them focus on being the absolute best at their given subjects, and then have experts...true experts, ones that focus on the syndromes for a living, handle that part.
Why is the solution from those overly compassionate, to put it nicely, always to have other people take on more responsibilities??

Yet if someone like me points out what I think should be obvious, I have comments thrown my way to insinuate that I don't care at all, or see no value in a child?

Exactly the opposite. I want to see proper help for the kid. Do you really think that the kid causing problems in the classroom over and over is going to be on a friendly basis with the other kids? That they are not going to give him grief outside of the adults supervision, and avoid him like the plague? Do you not think that this is what is so detreimental to his long term mental health as opposed to having a "wake up call" as an attempt to stem the problem??
What was not answered here, among many things, is whether the kid changed his behavior at all. It was not answered because it seems everyone overreacted after the fact.... /shrug

Shesulsa you seem to tell another poster they have no idea of the dynamics of the syndrome.... how do you come up with that conclusion, and what makes you an expert? Is that your livelyhood? Or did you just go read up on wikipedia? Or some combination of the two?

I see alot of other comments being made that are also drawing conclusions based on information that is simply not there...
Who said anything was wrong with incorporating people with different disabilities into our school system? Or that teaching compassion or social skills was wrong? I don't see that anywhere. What about teaching responsibility for ones actions? What about teaching those with disabilities that they too have to work to fit in or they will face consequences as well? Why does it always have to be one sided? Compassion does not say you have to tolerate abuse to yourself. Compassion does not say you have to suffer to understand it.

Banish the different through strength in numbers huh.... so is this a tyranny of the majority conversation now?
How about our prison system?
Do we not have rules and laws and when individuals break them they are punished?
If those punishments do not stem the tide of the actions they were designed to, then are the punishments not changed to get the desired effect? See the thread on hate crimes.... the hate crime addition is a perfect example.
I find it about teaching the kids to hold each other accountable for the their actions.
It did not say anywhere in here that the kids were allowed to call this other kid names, or tease him, or torture him, or abuse him in any way.
It simply says they were allowed to tell the boy what they thought of his continous behavior. Is this not freedom of speech?
Are we not allowed to teach our kids that if they do not like the way people are acting around them that they can not speak up for themselves?

I will say right out that if kids with different levels of these various syndromes are going to be put into the normal education process and be included into classrooms, that they should only be placed in classrooms with aids that are specifically educated in the syndromes and how to deal with them, and even then when the kids have proven over time to be too disruptive to the process then they should be removed up to the time they are able to control themselves, or improve their behavior to a more consistent basis.

 

[sempai little1]

I have a brother that was diagnosed with ADD and was highly intelligent. As a student and instead of challenging him to keep his focus, intrest, and attention he was mainstreamed and his obvious differences, from other students and there responses, did more to destroy his self esteem than if he was placed with a group of students and instructors with the knowledge to help him.

I wore those shoes too.
But times are different, there is more understanding of the children and how to teach them.
What didn't work in my days in school are no longer being used. My son is doing great in mainstream school, as are many other kids.
We just can't put a student in a class and leave the poor teacher to deal with all the issues that arise.
I meet with my son's teacher atleast once every two weeks or more if there is stress. (example, my brothers passing away. I was there often checking in on his weeks).
The kids also have daily planners that come home every night with a comment about there day. That way I am always aprised of any situation that comes up.

No mainstream isn't for everyone, but it is not an option we should push aside for challenged kids. Many thrive in mainstream classes, many just need alittle more attention and help.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

 

[arnisador]

Our teachers should be experts in their given subjects.

If you're teaching 5 year olds, you need to be an expert in child care and management. You can probably handle the addition of small integers part without an advanced degree in math.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

If you're teaching 5 year olds, you need to be an expert in child care and management. You can probably handle the addition of small integers part without an advanced degree in math.

Who said anything about an advanced degree in math for a kindergarten teacher?

So what level of understanding, and treatment for these various syndromes is appropriate for a kindergarten teacher? How much more schooling do you want to require from them? Like I said before, why make these people try to wear so many hats that they do their job poorly rather then get experts to deal with the specific problem?

 

[Tez3]

We have children with Aspbergers etc in mainstream schooling but they have a teaching assistant assigned to them if needed.

 

[sempai little1]

Like I said before, why make these people try to wear so many hats that they do their job poorly rather then get experts to deal with the specific problem?

I said it in another thread but I think it applies here as well.
"A jack of all trades, a master of none"
Child psycology(sp?) is not something you can learn in a semster in teachers college.
Teachers are taught child care and management, not how to deal with a child with sever problems in social situations.
The topic is about a 5 yr old here, but that's not to say that there are not other children at various levels of education dealing with the same problems.
So like Luckyboxer said, teachers need to stick to their subjects, and yes that may include advanced math in some situations.

The big picture is being lost in quick responces and heated come backs. We all agree that we want what's best for the kids. That means that some kids with thrive in mainstream classes and others need special ed.
Not to forget that the teachers need help. Not just a friendly pat on the back during teacher appreciation week, but daily help with challenged and non challenged children.

Insted of fighting over a subject that is going nowhere why not try and go to your school and ofter to become a mentor or volunteer as a teachers aid to help with children who need some extra help.
As martial artist, don't you think you would make a great role model to a struggling student.
Just a thought.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

 

[shesulsa]

Wow
Where to start....
Ok Shesulsa..
I am specifically talking about the comments you made.. the one about the herd... and thousands being left behind.... which is simply not true.

Every child like him and the other children in his class, where the teacher doesn't have the training nor adequate support to handle the situation are all left behind ... and there are many across this nation who are dealing with similar circumstances.

and then your last comment specifically about me finding no value in the child.
Thats simply something you made up to make me look like a bad guy.

I can see where you could take that personally, but it was not intended as a personal shot, rather a comparison. So, what then, do you think, IS the value of having a challenged person in a classroom?

You also made mention that the teacher should take a year or three off and learn about this and other syndromes...

Thats ridiculous.

Three might be ridiculous; a year probably isn't, given the specialized training required to help adapt a classroom environment to include as many as reasonably possible.

Our teachers should be experts in their given subjects.

So for a Kindergarten teacher, what would that subject be, exactly, in your opinion?

I have views on what that should be at different ages and grades, but regardless I do not think that trying to make every teacher take a few more years of study to become knowledgable in these syndromes is the way to go, and is just getting away from what they should be doing...
TEACHING.

But they would still be teaching. What else do you think they'd be doing?

You are wanting to make the teachers into Teachers, Mothers, Fathers, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Doctors, Nurses, Politicians, Cooks, Coaches, etc.

Teachers adapt lessons for many children without diagnoses, really. Some kids just don't get math as quickly without a trick or two, so they learn strategies for helping these children. Same with reading - there are a multitude of strategies and there really are no two students who learn the same way at the same rate.

Lets let them focus on being the absolute best at their given subjects, and then have experts...true experts, ones that focus on the syndromes for a living, handle that part.

Which leads us to the CBC model which most schools - including the one in my district - uses; it stands for "Center-Based Classroom." The gradations are 1-4, 1 being the least affected and 4 being virtually vegetative and/or needed serious medical assistance.

Why is the solution from those overly compassionate, to put it nicely, always to have other people take on more responsibilities??

Why is the solution for those who are ... well, the converse of what you said would be underly-compassionate, though I don't think it's an accurate assessment ... unwilling to allow diversity (I suppose is how one might put it?) to always discard those who they deem to be hinderances to all?

Yet if someone like me points out what I think should be obvious, I have comments thrown my way to insinuate that I don't care at all, or see no value in a child?

Again, please see my comment earlier.

Exactly the opposite. I want to see proper help for the kid. Do you really think that the kid causing problems in the classroom over and over is going to be on a friendly basis with the other kids? That they are not going to give him grief outside of the adults supervision, and avoid him like the plague? Do you not think that this is what is so detreimental to his long term mental health as opposed to having a "wake up call" as an attempt to stem the problem??

And isn't that the opportunity of a teacher? Principal? Playground monitors? To encourage productivity and healthy development since these are so incredibly crucial to the learning process?

What was not answered here, among many things, is whether the kid changed his behavior at all. It was not answered because it seems everyone overreacted after the fact.... /shrug

Hm. Well, according to the article, his behavior changed in that he is now rejecting himself, is desperate to fit in but refuses to go to that school again. So ... yeah, his behavior changed ... for the worse. As I said, conventional responses usually don't work for these kids.

Shesulsa you seem to tell another poster they have no idea of the dynamics of the syndrome.... how do you come up with that conclusion, and what makes you an expert? Is that your livelyhood? Or did you just go read up on wikipedia? Or some combination of the two?

I am the mother of a young man with high-functioning autism. When he was diagnosed, he was the only autistic kid in the school. My younger children tell me there is at least one kid on the spectrum or with some kind of challenge in every classroom in their school.

I see alot of other comments being made that are also drawing conclusions based on information that is simply not there...
Who said anything was wrong with incorporating people with different disabilities into our school system? Or that teaching compassion or social skills was wrong? I don't see that anywhere. What about teaching responsibility for ones actions? What about teaching those with disabilities that they too have to work to fit in or they will face consequences as well? Why does it always have to be one sided? Compassion does not say you have to tolerate abuse to yourself. Compassion does not say you have to suffer to understand it.

If I may say so, this statement is really reaching a lot and drawing conclusions as you accuse others of doing.

Banish the different through strength in numbers huh.... so is this a tyranny of the majority conversation now?
How about our prison system?
Do we not have rules and laws and when individuals break them they are punished?
If those punishments do not stem the tide of the actions they were designed to, then are the punishments not changed to get the desired effect? See the thread on hate crimes.... the hate crime addition is a perfect example.
I find it about teaching the kids to hold each other accountable for the their actions.
It did not say anywhere in here that the kids were allowed to call this other kid names, or tease him, or torture him, or abuse him in any way.
It simply says they were allowed to tell the boy what they thought of his continous behavior. Is this not freedom of speech?
Are we not allowed to teach our kids that if they do not like the way people are acting around them that they can not speak up for themselves?

That paragraph was all over the place, but as to the last question ... of course not ... but it appears to be a blanket solution for a very specific situation.

I will say right out that if kids with different levels of these various syndromes are going to be put into the normal education process and be included into classrooms, that they should only be placed in classrooms with aids that are specifically educated in the syndromes and how to deal with them, and even then when the kids have proven over time to be too disruptive to the process then they should be removed up to the time they are able to control themselves, or improve their behavior to a more consistent basis.

That is what an IEP is for - an Individualized Education Plan - which *should* already be in place for this child. We don't know that, however.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Now can't the School Board be voted out? Tell them either fire the teacher or be voted out. And then start a grass roots campain to do just that.

Deaf

 

[girlbug2]

We have children with Aspbergers etc in mainstream schooling but they have a teaching assistant assigned to them if needed.

England appears to be a very sensible country.