Teach / Train to beat other styles?

[James Kovacich]

Who includes beating other styles as a part teaching and or training? I don't take this topic lightly and I believe in practicing what you preach. I've spent a lot of years training in different styles which gave me the opportunity to see a lot from the other side of the coin. The one thing that is most common amongst the styles is that so many instructors "think they have it covered" when it comes to other styles.

I'll start this off using the obvious example, grappling. I put a few years BJJ training a couple days a week and one thing it did for me is it transfered my "sensitivity" from my upper body to my whole body. Now for me that is the biggest missing component that the anti-grapplers seem to lack and don't understand. I've heard over and over "I'll do this or that." Not really showing me much except they have a weak defense against someone deadset in taking them down and hurting them. What I'm saying with this example is one needs to be a grappler to truly understand how to be a grappler. Put in the mat time.

There's no right or wrong answers here. But I an expecting there to be a lot of good answers.

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[Cyriacus]

Well, for sport, yes. For sport it makes sense.
For anything else no, and i think its a waste of time... with the exception of learning to grapple.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As part of the style or from my instructor no, but I do talk to some of my friends about the weaknesses in there styles, and spar people from other styles to learn the best ways to fight them (although it can't alwys be applied to the style in general, many times just to the person or school the people im sparring belong to). But thats more of a personal thing I do for fun, my style doesn't address how to fight other styles.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The Gracie Combatives curriculum (white to blue belt material at the Gracie Academy) is almost 100% concerned with how to use grappling against a non-grappler. (I.e. a street fighter or a striking-based martial artist) They don't go into depth on how to counter other skilled grapplers until the student reaches blue belt.

I suspect they are able to do this effectively because they have decades worth of challenge matches against non-jiujitsuka, and so they have a very good idea of what behaviors to expect from a non-grappler. I've seen other martial arts schools where their ideas of what sort of attacks they might encounter outside their own system was ... not so realistic.

 

[James Kovacich]

From my view it isn't about fighting other styles. It' about understanding them and understanding how different fighters may come at you. This is a wild card in training because so many people refuse to look outside their styles. But it is the "truest" form of understanding, without it one is for the most part left with their particulars style on "how things will be." But anyone whose ever had to fight for real knows nothing is predictable.

For me I break things down a few times. 1st I separate the ranges, then the styles. Karate styles "at first" get lumped together. Same thing with the grappling styles and. Then I look at what the differances are in the styles, and there are differances. Sporting, SD, primary focus of art etc etc Many styles have overlap but they to have their uniqueness.

This isn't about my style is better. It is a continual learning process...

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[Kinghercules]

I thought the training was to be able to fight no matter who or what?
At lest thats what I was taught.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

beating other styles ...

You train MA to handle problems from other systems and not from your own system. What's the chance that the person you have to fight on the street happen to be someone in your own style?

 

[James Kovacich]

The Gracie Combatives curriculum (white to blue belt material at the Gracie Academy) is almost 100% concerned with how to use grappling against a non-grappler. (I.e. a street fighter or a striking-based martial artist) They don't go into depth on how to counter other skilled grapplers until the student reaches blue belt.

I suspect they are able to do this effectively because they have decades worth of challenge matches against non-jiujitsuka, and so they have a very good idea of what behaviors to expect from a non-grappler. I've seen other martial arts schools where their ideas of what sort of attacks they might encounter outside their own system was ... not so realistic.

There is a "method to the madness" there. They're teaching their new students to neutralize their opponents before dishing out the pain. It's an insurance policy to "impose their will."

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[Danny T]

Who includes beating other styles as a part teaching and or training? I don't take this topic lightly and I believe in practicing what you preach. I've spent a lot of years training in different styles which gave me the opportunity to see a lot from the other side of the coin. The one thing that is most common amongst the styles is that so many instructors "think they have it covered" when it comes to other styles.

I'll start this off using the obvious example, grappling. I put a few years BJJ training a couple days a week and one thing it did for me is it transfered my "sensitivity" from my upper body to my whole body. Now for me that is the biggest missing component that the anti-grapplers seem to lack and don't understand. I've heard over and over "I'll do this or that." Not really showing me much except they have a weak defense against someone deadset in taking them down and hurting them. What I'm saying with this example is one needs to be a grappler to truly understand how to be a grappler. Put in the mat time.

There's no right or wrong answers here. But I an expecting there to be a lot of good answers.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

We are a multi-martial art training facility with Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Kali, Combat Submission Wrestling/MMA, Shotokan, Tai Chi being taught and trained. We have instructors with high level training in Silat, Gojo Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Judo, BJJ, TKD, Wrestling, Boxing, Jun Fan and JKD (there are others just not thinking of them at the moment). We don’t specifically train against other arts however due to the amount of knowledge and skills of the practitioners in other systems when free sparring there is a large diversity of styles being presented. So everyone is exposed to a lot of different styles and perspectives. All of our instructors and many of our students cross train so there is always different styles available to practice against.

To become a full instructor in Wing Chun under my Sifu (Francis Fong) one of his requirements is you must have high level training in at least 2 different martial arts. I carry this on to the instructors in my school. All instructors must train in at least two other martial arts besides their primary art.

 

[James Kovacich]

You train MA to handle problems from other systems and not from your own system. What's the chance that the person you have to fight on the street happen to be someone in your own style?

I didn't say I don't train against my style. I don't expect to fight others that train. Most that train are level headed people. I just train.

I've trained with many people while training other styles and I have a lot of family that trains too. While training under my brother-in-law I trained Karate, Judo/Jujutsu, Kobujutsu, Aikido and Kumiuchi (full contact free form). That's from 1 instructor and I've had many instructors. My path was "set off" early on. I just didn't know it.

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[James Kovacich]

We are a multi-martial art training facility with Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Kali, Combat Submission Wrestling/MMA, Shotokan, Tai Chi being taught and trained. We have instructors with high level training in Silat, Gojo Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Judo, BJJ, TKD, Wrestling, Boxing, Jun Fan and JKD (there are others just not thinking of them at the moment). We don’t specifically train against other arts however due to the amount of knowledge and skills of the practitioners in other systems when free sparring there is a large diversity of styles being presented. So everyone is exposed to a lot of different styles and perspectives. All of our instructors and many of our students cross train so there is always different styles available to practice against.

To become a full instructor in Wing Chun under my Sifu (Francis Fong) one of his requirements is you must have high level training in at least 2 different martial arts. I carry this on to the instructors in my school. All instructors must train in at least two other martial arts besides their primary art.

The requirement for a Shodan in Kumiuchi full contact under my brother-in-law was at least a Sankyu in Judo as Judo was a part of it.

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[harlan]

We (Goju) train with a seriously gifted TKD teacher, and I have to say, it makes me wonder where other Goju stylists ever came up with the idea of 'catching the kick'....

 

[Xue Sheng]

One of the best learning experiences I have had in my MA training was years ago when I was part of a sparing group from multiple styles. I have seen some pretty good fighters (in their chosen style) get messed up fighting someone from another style.

You see things coming at you that you would not normally see and defenses you may not have ever seen either and whether or not you are fighting a trained person or an untrained person it is good to have some unconventional views of a fight (as it applies to your chosen style)

More recently I was taking a Wing Chun class and I discovered all of my attacks were Xingyiquan and the other students were at a complete loss as to how to deal with me. The sifu, who I feel is very good at Wing Chun, could at best stop me but we would end up locked both knowing if we move the other gained the advantage. However I did have something I could have done to break it, but chose not to use it, and that is Kao (shoulder strike) from Taijiquan

It can be good to train with other styles in mind

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have to say that Kenpo was created as an answer to Hard styles, and grappling, but as for my own personal training, I was taught a lot of Anti-TKD stuff. At the time, it was what you were most likely going to be faced with, and to some extent it still is. This isn't a slam against TKD, but if faced with the possibility of fighting, and I find I am facing a kicker, I feel relief. This isn't because TKD can't hurt me, it is because that is where I have received the most training.
Sean

 

[James Kovacich]

One of the best learning experiences I have had in my MA training was years ago when I was part of a sparing group from multiple styles. I have seen some pretty good fighters (in their chosen style) get messed up fighting someone from another style.

You see things coming at you that you would not normally see and defenses you may not have ever seen either and whether or not you are fighting a trained person or an untrained person it is good to have some unconventional views of a fight (as it applies to your chosen style)

More recently I was taking a Wing Chun class and I discovered all of my attacks were Xingyiquan and the other students were at a complete loss as to how to deal with me. The sifu, who I feel is very good at Wing Chun, could at best stop me but we would end up locked both knowing if we move the other gained the advantage. However I did have something I could have done to break it, but chose not to use it, and that is Kao (shoulder strike) from Taijiquan

It can be good to train with other styles in mind

That reminds me of when I was younger and I wanted to get extra work on my kicks. So I signed up for 6 months a TKD school for 2 days a week on my off days. When we sparred in TKD class I used my Kajukenbo which was ingrained, in particular the blocking. I remember people in that class being amazed and asking me if I was using Kung Fu.

The differances become apparent when we look in the right places.

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[James Kovacich]

I have to say that Kenpo was created as an answer to Hard styles, and grappling, but as for my own personal training, I was taught a lot of Anti-TKD stuff. At the time, it was what you were most likely going to be faced with, and to some extent it still is. This isn't a slam against TKD, but if faced with the possibility of fighting, and I find I am facing a kicker, I feel relief. This isn't because TKD can't hurt me, it is because that is where I have received the most training.
Sean

I would choose a kicker too if I had a choice because it's easy to jam em and change their game. Not to say they don't have hands. It's just nice to take away a weapon or two.

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[James Kovacich]

We (Goju) train with a seriously gifted TKD teacher, and I have to say, it makes me wonder where other Goju stylists ever came up with the idea of 'catching the kick'....

I'm not sure if anyone stake claim to that. I'd guess that's probably been around "in sparring" as long as the systems existed. But sometimes something that simple could be considered irrelevant and not needing to explore. It would'nt be what the 1st to be ignored.

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[MJS]

Who includes beating other styles as a part teaching and or training? I don't take this topic lightly and I believe in practicing what you preach. I've spent a lot of years training in different styles which gave me the opportunity to see a lot from the other side of the coin. The one thing that is most common amongst the styles is that so many instructors "think they have it covered" when it comes to other styles.

I'll start this off using the obvious example, grappling. I put a few years BJJ training a couple days a week and one thing it did for me is it transfered my "sensitivity" from my upper body to my whole body. Now for me that is the biggest missing component that the anti-grapplers seem to lack and don't understand. I've heard over and over "I'll do this or that." Not really showing me much except they have a weak defense against someone deadset in taking them down and hurting them. What I'm saying with this example is one needs to be a grappler to truly understand how to be a grappler. Put in the mat time.

There's no right or wrong answers here. But I an expecting there to be a lot of good answers.

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I think that you summed up my thoughts with what you posted in post #5 James. While it may apply more to sport applications, vs SD applications, I think that its still important to teach how other arts function. I mean, if someone is going to teach a defense and a student is going to assume that said defense is going to actually work or have the impression that it'll work, then IMHO, the teacher as well as the student should have at least a basic understanding of how things work. Ex: In Kenpo we have various techs to defend against takedowns. Nothing wrong with this in and of itself, however, if the person has no idea how a grappler operates, the student could be in for quite a surprise.

Granted, in the real world, the badguy may not be a world class wrestler, but instead some punk who just rushes you and does a half *** takedown attempt, but IMO, I'd rather be over prepared, than under. But thats just me.

 

[harlan]

Not sure I understand the reply...but to be clear, I think that training to catch a kick from a skilled kicking stylist is foolhardy at best.

I'm not sure if anyone stake claim to that. I'd guess that's probably been around "in sparring" as long as the systems existed. But sometimes something that simple could be considered irrelevant and not needing to explore. It would'nt be what the 1st to be ignored.

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[James Kovacich]

Not sure I understand the reply...but to be clear, I think that training to catch a kick from a skilled kicking stylist is foolhardy at best.

I thought you were implying that your TKD instructor included it into your Goju. I was just saying that as far sparring goes it isn't new.

Catching a kick isn't science so as far as training it you may be right. I don't train it, but if it presents itself. Why not?

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