Anti-Grappling Techniques...

[Kung Fu Wang]

There in lies the problem with grappling. If you have to go to the ground to shine, will his buddies refrain from kicking you in the face?

One of my friend's son was killed that way. The blood filled in his son's skull. Even the EM doctor didn't know what to do until his son was dead. A kick to the back of the head when you are on the ground is bad news.

 

[drop bear]

people were popping pictures of ufc fighters up to make the point that wressling was effective, so in the same vain . No if your not good enough to earn a good living out of beating people up, then you are short of being called skilled. So let's call them,semi skilled

Ok. Just for fun here is some street wrestling and punching,weapon defence and multiple oponants from a non fat guy.

To show you that you may need both tools to deal with agression.

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/martial-arts-saved-life-brutal-road-rage-fight/

 

[drop bear]

Not fair to cherry pick one part of your post, but that hasn't been my experience. My first experience was in Freestyle BJJ, and it was learning position and base - and punching from position. (while maintaining your base) Submissions was the last thing to be covered, way later.

And my first experience in a BJJ school (also Freestyle BJJ) was to be doing whatever the class happened to be doing at that time. Might be different in a large BJJ school, maybe if they have a beginners class as well as a more advanced class. But "sitting on your butt and learning submissions" I've never heard of that.

So what position were you learning this base from.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There in lies the problem with grappling. If you have to go to the ground to shine, will his buddies refrain from kicking you in the face?

That's not a problem with grappling. It's a problem with training only half of grappling. Learning only ground grappling without also learning the standing aspects of the art is like learning to box with only one hand.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But "sitting on your butt and learning submissions" I've never heard of that.

Unfortunately I have encountered that in more than one place. I attribute it to the growth of people wanting to train just the sport of tournament BJJ and not studying the martial art.

 

[drop bear]

That's not a problem with grappling. It's a problem with training only half of grappling. Learning only ground grappling without also learning the standing aspects of the art is like learning to box with only one hand.

I have this dream that i will just take 5 guys to every self defence class I can find. And when the instructor demonstrates a move just jump him.

And then go.

"Ahah.. but it doesn't work when all his friends turn up does it?"

 

[drop bear]

Unfortunately I have encountered that in more than one place. I attribute it to the growth of people wanting to train just the sport of tournament BJJ and not studying the martial art.

Ok mabye this will work better.

How did Demetrious Johnson become a better BJJ practitioner than Wilson Reis.

Crack that nut and hopefully people will see what I am trying to get at here.

 

[Buka]

So what position were you learning this base from.

The positions of when you are in guard, when you have somebody in your guard, cross side position (top), were what we started from. And everything was about base. That's all we heard, base, base, base. (I still hear it in my head in that Portuguese accent. "Your bay-za, your bay-za) At first, punching was focused mostly when you had someone in your guard (closed for me, it's what I like) I can't have anybody in my guard without punching, thinking about punching, or preparing to punch. That and protecting my head, both from him and what might be around me - then maybe submission...if it's there.

I don't really know anything about sport Jiu-jitsu, other than having competed in a couple tournaments. Didn't know what the rules were, still don't. Probably explains my stellar performances. But, man, they sure were a lot fun. Sometimes you have just as much fun getting smoked as you do winning.

 

[drop bear]

The positions of when you are in guard, when you have somebody in your guard, cross side position (top), were what we started from. And everything was about base. That's all we heard, base, base, base. (I still hear it in my head in that Portuguese accent. "Your bay-za, your bay-za) At first, punching was focused mostly when you had someone in your guard (closed for me, it's what I like) I can't have anybody in my guard without punching, thinking about punching, or preparing to punch. That and protecting my head, both from him and what might be around me - then maybe submission...if it's there.

I don't really know anything about sport Jiu-jitsu, other than having competed in a couple tournaments. Didn't know what the rules were, still don't. Probably explains my stellar performances. But, man, they sure were a lot fun. Sometimes you have just as much fun getting smoked as you do winning.

Yeah. See we do guard because we are learning a comprehensive system. But at no point would we stay in guard unless we are going for submissions.

Now this is specifically as a supplement to striking and we are trying to get as much bang for our buck here. At which point I wouldnt really prioritise guard.

In a very simple program. People can't really hit you and stop you from getting up at the same time. So we abandon the necessity for a guard game and just stand up. During a take down we avoid guard like the plague. If i flop to a seated. I can start my get up process a lot earlier.

Anti grappling is about making it as hard for BJJ players to do their thing as you can.

So all of this is trying to say. When I am talking about sitting on your bum doing submission. You are describing pretty much what I had in mind when I said it.

 

[Buka]

Yeah. See we do guard because we are learning a comprehensive system. But at no point would we stay in guard unless we are going for submissions.

Now this is specifically as a supplement to striking and we are trying to get as much bang for our buck here. At which point I wouldnt really prioritise guard.

In a very simple program. People can't really hit you and stop you from getting up at the same time. So we abandon the necessity for a guard game and just stand up. During a take down we avoid guard like the plague. If i flop to a seated. I can start my get up process a lot earlier.

Anti grappling is about making it as hard for BJJ players to do their thing as you can.

So all of this is trying to say. When I am talking about sitting on your bum doing submission. You are describing pretty much what I had in mind when I said it.

Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now. I'm all in that for that, I'm a striker, I live for the stand up game. nothing I'd rather do - other than take someone down to control them (for work).

As for getting up fast - before we were ever exposed to the ground game (and to this day), we practiced getting up as fast as possible. Not just as a drill itself, but in everything we did. Doing pushups - when the instructor said "up", even if it was in the middle of a set - everyone had to get up like lightning. If the instructor didn't think it fast enough (as a group) you did a zillion more pushups. same thing for sit ups, or for stretching, other than long held split exercises. I always found that when working as a group "getting up fast", it made each individual faster.

But for guard - I'd just as soon strike the hell out of you if I have you in my guard as I would standing up. It doesn't take too many shots. I can also get up quite quickly from having someone in my guard, striking, pushing away, disengaging the legs, rolling back/sideways over a shoulder and getting up. In the time it took to type that damn sentence I'll bet I could have gotten up from guard three damn times.

 

[Charlemagne]

There in lies the problem with grappling. If you have to go to the ground to shine, will his buddies refrain from kicking you in the face?

That's not a problem with grappling at all. That's a problem of knowing ONLY grappling.

 

[drop bear]

Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now. I'm all in that for that, I'm a striker, I live for the stand up game. nothing I'd rather do - other than take someone down to control them (for work).

As for getting up fast - before we were ever exposed to the ground game (and to this day), we practiced getting up as fast as possible. Not just as a drill itself, but in everything we did. Doing pushups - when the instructor said "up", even if it was in the middle of a set - everyone had to get up like lightning. If the instructor didn't think it fast enough (as a group) you did a zillion more pushups. same thing for sit ups, or for stretching, other than long held split exercises. I always found that when working as a group "getting up fast", it made each individual faster.

But for guard - I'd just as soon strike the hell out of you if I have you in my guard as I would standing up. It doesn't take too many shots. I can also get up quite quickly from having someone in my guard, striking, pushing away, disengaging the legs, rolling back/sideways over a shoulder and getting up. In the time it took to type that damn sentence I'll bet I could have gotten up from guard three damn times.

You roll out of guard?

Different.

lets keep using the Demetrious Johnston reference here because otherwise finding reference these specific counters is going to be a nightmare.

Ok. 59 seconds in we see a takedown and a takedown defence. That is the sort of never wind up on your back ever ever movement that a striker really wants to know.

It short changes the need to fight from guard unless you are really planted down there. It is almost iconically the difference in mentality between BJJ and wrestling.

Of course in MMA you need both. But for strikers trying to stay on their feet. Having to choose systems. That constant battle to stand up is where you want to be.

At the 2 minute mark you see the reverse option by wilson reis rolling on to the back.

 

[jobo]

Ok. Just for fun here is some street wrestling and punching,weapon defence and multiple oponants from a non fat guy.

To show you that you may need both tools to deal with agression.

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/martial-arts-saved-life-brutal-road-rage-fight/

that not street wrestling, that's what we in England call a fight

 

[Tez3]

that not street wrestling, that's what we in England call a fight

ah now we can see why you 'win' your 'fights'.

 

[dunc]

Hello everyone,
I posted this in one of the other threads also, I hope that the mods don't mind. This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here. So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened? Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.

I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have. I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated. Here is what I have collected so far. Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.) The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students.

- When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.

- Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek. When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.

- Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

- If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Any more added to the list is greatly appreciated. Helpful responses only please. Thank you,

Kab

Trying to answer the OP's question directly as I've been there

I'd start by saying that I've spent most of my life training in traditional arts that have a focus on surviving dangerous situations. These do have some ground work, but it's a fairly limited curriculum

I experimented a lot with an experienced BJJ guy (purple) and found that, whilst I consistently found something to escape with, I didn't have sufficient structure and ability to move on the ground to either cope with a more experienced grappler or provide more "back up plans" if I screwed up

So I've been cross training in BJJ to build a stronger foundation on the ground

In my view some of the techniques that you're quoting above aren't going to get you that far. I'd focus on learning::

- Grip releases: Quite straightforward when you add strikes to the arms, but they do require practice in a resistive environment if wearing a jacket
- Defending lapel chokes and arm bars by positioning yourself correctly (cover your lapel, elbows in etc). You're going to need some defensive positions to buy time for an escape
- Standing when you're caught in closed guard: You'll need to work on your positioning/grips to prevent getting your structure being taken first. Once you've established the standing posture/position you can add strikes (best to hit the inside of the thighs/hips to open the guard), and make sure you learn how to prevent sweeps
- Arching and moving up to escape a back control. You can strike the legs to help release the hooks, but you'll likely need to be defending a choke so they have some limitations. Probably you'll end up being mounted unless you train this a lot
- Knee to elbow mount escape to ankle lock/heel hook. It's a banker
- Arm trap and roll mount escape - followed by the closed guard escapes above
- One or two ways to replace the guard from side control. If you can get your shin or feet into play then you can create some distance for strikes which may allow you to disengage and stand again
- Technical stand ups

My recommendation is to take these, work on the structure with resistance, then add strikes, dirty tricks etc to augment the overall movement

Hope this helps

 

[JP3]

I have this dream that i will just take 5 guys to every self defence class I can find. And when the instructor demonstrates a move just jump him.

And then go.

"Ahah.. but it doesn't work when all his friends turn up does it?"

I just had this funny image, video really, play through my mind doing just that. Sort of like Bruce's movie, the Big Boss, when he goes intot he school and whomps everyone, but with the school converted to a seminar environment with Drop out on the mat waiting his turn to be the demonstration uke/dummy....

and then... Wham!. Jab, cross, body hook, double-leg, blast, mount, inside position and ground & pound rat a tat tat tat tat tat (had to get to 7 strikes), nifty dive roll off the side and the group fights its way out of the stunned seminar.

Someone want to write a screenplay?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ok, fair enough, but in my line of work I can't afford to let my opponent "win!"

Exactly TonyU and even as a civilian if you are carrying ccw you can't afford to lose either! Fortunately in your profession you usually have help coming or already there!

 

[drop bear]

I just had this funny image, video really, play through my mind doing just that. Sort of like Bruce's movie, the Big Boss, when he goes intot he school and whomps everyone, but with the school converted to a seminar environment with Drop out on the mat waiting his turn to be the demonstration uke/dummy....

and then... Wham!. Jab, cross, body hook, double-leg, blast, mount, inside position and ground & pound rat a tat tat tat tat tat (had to get to 7 strikes), nifty dive roll off the side and the group fights its way out of the stunned seminar.

Someone want to write a screenplay?

It has been done in a terrible movie called ninja Academy. The master aks for five guys to spar with, mauls them then counts to four.

No. five smacks him in the nuts from behind.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly TonyU and even as a civilian if you are carrying ccw you can't afford to lose either! Fortunately in your profession you usually have help coming or already there!

Nice idea. Doesn't change the method.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well Drop Bear the method may not change based on your training but your mindset better be in a different place. If I am carrying and someone disables me then they can take my firearm and use it not only against me but against other individuals including my family. So that does change the situation from simple bar fight where the fighters have more of a dominance monkey type mindset. Were they might be happy just being the dominant person rather than potentially killing you and or killing other people.