tapi-tapi experimentation

[Brian Johns]

Mac,

That was berri good !! Bring it on brother !!

On a more serious vein, Mao is right. Those who were not at the camps or the seminars in the last several years may have an understanding of what tapi tapi is about but may not understand just how central it was to the Professor's approach to Modern Arnis in the last several years. As I said earlier, he basically elevated it to the point where it was the "heart of the art" (Professor's words, not mine).

WOOOOOO !!!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Whoop and Mao,
Major disagreement here on tapi-tapi was the heart of the art. Take a look at tapi-tapi as a concept and you have counter for counter. However, the drill tapi-tapi is just that, a drill.

I had been with Prof. Presas for 22 years up to his death. If you review his earlier material, what he calls tapi-tapi now was cane sparring in the past. Yes, people were not ready for it but at the same time, he hadn't come up with a method for teaching it. Prof. Presas was not a scientific, analytical man with a scientific methodology for teaching. He was a master of motion and worked over the years in his presentation of what he could do. When he finally figured it out, he taught it.

Now as far as the current students who have been taught tapi-tapi without a thorough grounding in the basics (including the other drills I mentioned in my last post in this thread), if you break the pattern you'll throw them off, big time. I did this with one of the MOTTs a while back. Trust me on this one, I know of what I speak.

Now, before Kodai or some other knucklehead states that I am contradicting Prof. Presas or setting myself up as the current source point for "correct" Modern Arnis, I am not. However, regarding his stating that tapi-tapi was the heart of his art, he said the same thing about the flow and making the connection in years past.

One thing Prof. Presas was very good at was marketing his art so that it was continually fresh and new. (Hoo boy am I going to get some people pissed at me here!) I remember all the ground fighting techniques that surfaced date coincident with the rise of popularity of the UFC. So has it been with the current emphasis on tapi-tapi.

Any of you who have who have seminar tapes of Prof. Presas over the years will notice that his basics remain the same throughout the years. His flow, his making the connnection, his tapi-tapi remained the same (I'm not talking about his skill at them - that rose). His students did not. We got better so that he could elevate the teaching. Ask any of the old timers of Modern Arnis. It's true. All for now. I expect to hear from some of you about this.
Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Mao]

Not as much disagreement as you think. We agree that students need a strong foundation in the basics. There has been some disagreement as to the "activeness" of some people. I didn't start that one. In one sense tapi tapi can be considered a drill, in another sense no it's not. The diff. may lie in the approach. From a close, or corto range combat perspective, many parts of tapi tapi are not a drill, thats where the fight is. From a lock flow or bait and counter or counter counter or whatever you wanna call it perspective, yeah it can be a drill. The fact is that Remy himself said that it was the heart of the art in the last several years. That was his emphasis. He had evolved, on that we agree also. Evolution does not negate previous reality, it changes the present one. We also agree on the Professors ability to guage the crowd. I also know of a MOTT who spanked a higher ranking guy. So? If your practicing tapi tapi from a drilling perspective and then change things midstream I can see how one can be thrown off. If your practicing free form, for lack of a better term, There would be a BIG difference. One more thing, not all the MOTTS are at the same tapi tapi skill level. The one doing "his own thing" comes to mind. That a whole other can 'o worms.
You probably will hear from people on this because there will be differing opinions. We agree on this too. There are alot of points of agreement here. Mayhap we could concentrate on some of those. I don't expect to change anyones opinion who believes themselves to be educated on the subject. My cup isn't that full and I'm not that arrogant.

 

[Brian Johns]

<<<<Major disagreement here on tapi-tapi was the heart of the art. Take a look at tapi-tapi as a concept and you have counter for counter. However, the drill tapi-tapi is just that, a drill.>>>>

Professor himself said that tapi tapi was the heart of the art. Those were his words, not mine. One must differentiate between drills and the concept of tapi tapi. For the Professor, the concept of tapi tapi permeated the entire art in the last several years of his life. The man did tapi tapi everywhere......in airports, in hotel rooms, in restaurants. Empty handed tapi tapi. Even newspaper tapi tapi. I know....Mao and I did empty handed tapi tapi with Professor over meals when we had him in town for seminars. The man lived, ate, breathed, walked, talked, slept tapi tapi. It was the heart of the art, according to Professor.

From what you indicated in your message, there may not be much of a disagreement. Yes, he developed drills to help develop the concept of tapi tapi.....such as the block check counter drills and various other drills etc. These drills were designed by Professor to learn the CONCEPT of tapi tapi. Tapi tapi can be applied to any drill contained in Modern Arnis. You name it, Professor had a tapi tapi version of it. I know that he changed a lot of things in the mid 1990's and shifted the focus of his teaching to teaching tapi tapi.

You and I may not agree on whether tapi tapi is the heart of the art. But the fact of the matter is that the Professor considered it as such in the last few years. There is a heavy emphasis on it on his last tape series. Then there's the creation of the MOTTs.

As for the rest of your message, as Mao said, there may not be much disagreement. I agree that a strong foundation in the basics will make for strong tapi tapi skills. I agree that the counter for counter is a concept within the art of Modern Arnis. There may be a few areas of agreement here.

I think that the area of disagreement lies over the term "tapi tapi is the heart of the art." Professor's words, not mine nor Mao's or the MOTTs. Professor's words. In any case, his teaching methodology over the last few years was to teach tapi tapi.

WOOOOOOOOOO!!!:boing1:

 

[Mao]

Concurance here. It looks as though, as Whoop sais, the discrepency is in "the heart of the art" thing. I sounds like we all agree on the concept vs. drill topic. Eh? Whoopass and I started to do some tapi tapi in the airport recently. It drew some interesting looks and even a comment from one guy "what is that". Boy did he set himself up. Good thing that we aren't mean. I must say that I was a little self concious. I think that the next time we'll find some stiffer newspaper and rock till someone calls for help! Waddya think Smellyass?

 

[Brian Johns]

It drew some interesting looks and even a comment from one guy "what is that". Boy did he set himself up. Good thing that we aren't mean. I must say that I was a little self concious. I think that the next time we'll find some stiffer newspaper and rock till someone calls for help! Waddya think Smellyass?

Yeah that was an interesting experience. Too bad that we had small weeny magazines to work with. Yes, we must use rolled up newspapers and scare the hell out of airport security by rocking and rolling. "If you touch me, I'll funish you !!"
I was self conscious as well. But what the heck, we had a few things to iron out tapi tapi wise. The plane was late, so what the hell ?

WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Mao and Whoopass,
You duplicated the intent of my communication. We sound like a couple of guys sitting around drinking a couple of cold ones rather than getting pissed on the subject. Thanks.
Dan :cheers:

 

[Mao]

Dan A.,
I'm glad you see it that way! I'd rather be drinking a pop together than spitting at each other. I like good, interesting, honest, friendly discussions anyway. :wavey:

 

[Brian Johns]

Well, well, aren't we all getting along here just beautifully ?

WOOOOOOO!!!!!:rofl:

 

[Mao]

Yeah, we are! Our parents would be proud! It's much nicer this way than another way that happened recently. I refer to the su.ko. thing. Glad that seems to be over.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

If you review his earlier material, what he calls tapi-tapi now was cane sparring in the past. Yes, people were not ready for it but at the same time, he hadn't come up with a method for teaching it.

I agree. Solo baston was always cane sparring and the Professor was always doing tapi-tapi in it. He has been tieing me up since at least the late 1980s. I didn't know what it was--I remember asking Mr. Hartman what that technique was where he ended by tieing up both my arms with both his and my stick then striking me in the face--but he was doing it, and it was in solo baston. He also frequently did it L on R and we knew that we should be practicing that too. I think that Mr. Anderson is dead-on--the Professor wasn't ready to teach this material at the time. I must also agree that there was a marketing/momentum issue for the Professor--I'm sure he wanted something new and different to keep focus on his art. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

However, regarding his stating that tapi-tapi was the heart of his art, he said the same thing about the flow and making the connection in years past.

Yup. The flow was the heart of the art for some time, and also making the connections/it's all the same. How many times did I hear flow, Flow, FLOW! at camps and seminars?

Any of you who have who have seminar tapes of Prof. Presas over the years will notice that his basics remain the same throughout the years. His flow, his making the connnection, his tapi-tapi remained the same

Yes! I absolutely agree. He was doing the same things all along, but presented them in stages (for whatever reasons). I don't see tapi-tapi as the culmination--I see it as Mr. Anderson does, one of the main aspects of the Professor's method and teachings.

Let's see--he said at various times that (at least) three different things were the heart of the art, which was the art within your art. Could he have meant that these three concepts were all very important, and that each of us must draw from them what we need?

He's been doing tapi-tapi to me, and much more to Mr. Hartman in front of me, for as long as I've known him. It's now been presented in great detail, but it was always there. It's a part of the art; perhaps its a heart of the art; but I'm not ready to say that it's the heart of the art, to the exclusion of other important concepts. In fact, I understand that there are a number of Modern Arnis instructors who teach the art as though it was all tapi-tapi, and I think that that's too bad.

 

[arnisandyz]

but I'm not ready to say that it's the heart of the art, to the exclusion of other important concepts. In fact, I understand that there are a number of Modern Arnis instructors who teach the art as though it was all tapi-tapi, and I think that that's too bad. [/B][/QUOTE]

Perhaps the Professor did not teach the Tapi-Tapi early on to be sure the students had the basics. It is easy to be lured into the attachment of Tapi-Tapi and loose site of the basics of footwork, angulation, etc. As someone has stated before, the best people at Tapi-Tapi are the ones who understand the basics and incorporate them into the drill. Not to be disrespectful to MA, but I have seen several MA folks who are very good with the hands and trapping skills, but are standing toe to toe with no footwork. In addition, they tend to crash in on straight line to grab the stick rather than see opportunities in all ranges or using footwork to get them to the desired range. These could be the type that Arnisador spoke about being ALL tapi-tapi. They have a piece of the puzzle.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Maybe a key word here is "Heart".

Is it the "heart" as in soul of the art?
or
"Heart" as in the core of the art?
or
"Heart" as in the original ideas of the art?

Maybe the key to understanding the meaning is to ask," what it it to me?"

Somehow tied into where you were at when you first learned it, and where GM was at that time too?

(hopefully this makes sence, I've got a wicked migrane today. focus bad)

:asian:

 

[arnisandyz]

It is my opinion (take it for what its worth ) that Tapi-Tapi is not the heart, or soul, or core of Modern Arnis, but a drill designed to hone much sought after attributes (fill in the blank). It is similar to sombrada box pattern, largo drills, palisut, hubud, knife tapping, chi sao, pushhands or any other drills. The individual is far more important than the drill being performed. All patterns are meant to be broken, not memorized for the long term. We need to go through the motions and learn it and feel it so we can forget it and break it. The ones that can do this and free themselves from the drill have achieved what the drill was intended for. The ones that don't get it, get good at a drill.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

We need to go through the motions and learn it and feel it so we can forget it and break it. The ones that can do this and free themselves from the drill have achieved what the drill was intended for. The ones that don't get it, get good at a drill.

So the stuff I accidentally come up with doesn't count as this since I'm still trying to learn the dang drill anyway?

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

It is my opinion (take it for what its worth ) that Tapi-Tapi is not the heart, or soul, or core of Modern Arnis, but a drill designed to hone much sought after attributes (fill in the blank).

OK, I will (fill in the blank, that is)! To my mind one of the most amazing things the Professor ever did was stand toe-to-toe with a person and calmly, smoothly, but quickly reach in and grab your stick! After that the tieing-up was incidental to my mind. The attribute I see here is the aliveness of the live hand--fully integrating it rather than just giving lip-service to the idea that the live hand is important. It's that ability to put the live hand in action in corto range (which is where I like to be).

I wish I could disagree with your comments about footwork and Modern Arnis players, but I know just what you mean.

 

[Mao]

It appears that we are, for the most part, saying the same things. Body positioning is important. Footwork is important. Basics are very important. The emphasis on tapi tapi became more important in Remy's last several years. There are those who teach, anymore, like tapi tapi is all there is. We agree on all this. so LETS PLAY! :duel: :jedi1: :angel:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao

It appears that we are, for the most part, saying the same things. Body positioning is important. Footwork is important. Basics are very important.

I think you're right Mao. I can't argue with your summary. All these things are important and all need to be tied together in the long run if we ever hope to move like the Professor did. None of us will ever achieve that, I suspect, but it's a goal.

so LETS PLAY!

Driving back from Buffalo yesterday it looked for a while as though we'd be spending the night in Columbus. I was thinking I might stop by your school if I did! But we were making good time and pushed on.

 

[Mao]

Hey, that would've been great! It would have been a pleasure to have met you. Perhaps another time.
Yesterday in 1959, the great and mighty MAO was born and the world was a better place!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao

Yesterday in 1959, the great and mighty MAO was born and the world was a better place!

Happy belated birthday Mao!