Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity

[JowGaWolf]

If the form creator could link 3 moves into a logic sequence, why would he link 3 moves into non-logical sequence?

I believe the original creators of the techniques did use logical sequences. However, as fewer people practice these techniques, the logic behind them gets lost, especially if the student isn't learning how to apply the technique through sparring and against other systems.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I walked on the beach, I liked to train 8 of my throws. One day I decided to combine 2 throws into 1 combo. This way, I only needed to drill 4 combos instead of 8 individual throws. When I combined 2 throws into a sequence, I would connect it into a logic order. If I could do that. The ancient form creator should be able to do that too.

Keep in mind that you are using it because you know how to use the throw. How many people can use kung fu techniques. Not many because most kung fu sparring looks like basic kickboxing.

 

[windwalker099]

What do you mean "I like the teacher's work?" If someone has great combat skill/ability, I will say that I like his combat skill/ability. The term "work" is a bit too abstract for me. I like the term "combat". It's used as part of my organization ACSCA. The 1st C is "combat".

Abstract ? This term is often employed to encompass various types of intellectual, creative, and practical efforts within a discipline...

Don't care much for the term "combat" , understanding the context in which some might use it,
find it misleading, it is not training for "war"

What kind of "work" is the "work" that you are talking about?

The work that is outlined in the teachers web site , the teacher has good skill, an interesting background.

 

[windwalker099]

There are a couple of well known Yiquan schools/teachers in Beijing, I’m sure neither those schools or your teacher would wanted to have risk any eventual and unnecessary confrontation escalation caused by either their students. In the sense of losing/keeping face.

You can be sure, but you don't know. The statement is based on ignorance.
Maybe things have changed in the past 20yrs or so..

In my teachers group it was common for people to stop by from other practices, some stayed finding something quite different. Others, some noted teachers, or students of them visited

In some aspects found my teacher to be kind of unique, he was quite open about allowing others to feel his practice.
Invited by others within the group...

I've had a couple of people from the US meet him awhile back...always a good time.
A lot of his students had many yrs of practice in other arts, it was interesting.

For those no one knew, he had people there that handled things...
kinda sad at times watching what happened to them. This was China, what could one say..
my teacher in his 80s at the time I knew him...

Yiquan in the Yao Zhongxun linage do not shun boxing/sanda, on the contrary this linage recognizes the condensation to essential martial arts(pugilistic)principles in western boxing and therefore can easily take to its practice to condition for entering sanda/boxing competition .

Have read books in English long ago about the art...the creation of it.
Do you feel this accounting is true ?

" M Yao lifted his hand and made a very small fa li motion towards Ao’s face. Ao felt as if a large mass of paper had hit his forehead, it scared him witless. Have you ever come across this ability?

C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan. His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray. Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability."

It might account for some of your feelings about the practice.
Asked if you could do some of things shown, as it mentioned the "practice of Yiquan can develop this ability"

those who enter competitions probably don’t even profile themselves as Yiquan practitioners

If they do not acknowledge style or teacher.
Then why mention them ?


The OP mentioned "Hunyuan" giving his description of it with out any reference points photos, video ect.

The teacher talks about the same thing, providing photos and videos of his practice
What he "shows" aligns with my experience although the verbiage is different.

Student: What is Hunyuan strength?
Master Fung: Hunyuan strength refers to oneness, whole body strength or six surfaces strength. It is different from regular strength.

 

[windwalker099]

"We have a great showcase of two different Yiquan (aka dacheng quan) vs mma sparring. In the first match, we have the Yiquan Master (Qiao Huan Xiang) taking on a mma guy in kickboxing.

In the second match, we have the same yiquan master taking on another mma guy (most likely a coach) in boxing. Let's see what great lessons we can learn and observe, especially about body mechanics and fascia slings.

Full match on this douyin channel: 北京大成拳求真学社"

 

[JowGaWolf]

"We have a great showcase of two different Yiquan (aka dacheng quan) vs mma sparring. In the first match, we have the Yiquan Master (Qiao Huan Xiang) taking on a mma guy in kickboxing.

In the second match, we have the same yiquan master taking on another mma guy (most likely a coach) in boxing. Let's see what great lessons we can learn and observe, especially about body mechanics and fascia slings.

Full match on this douyin channel: 北京大成拳求真学社"

I don't like these videos because they are always a bad example of something. They are just not good representations of the system they train. This is why one of my biggest drives is to do my best to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu. So that no one can say that Jow Ga is useless.
I don't have enough knowledge of Yiquan to tell you guys if that's what's showing below so I can only go by the titles.

If the martial artist has bad footwork, then don't even bother posting it. Footwork never lies and anyone who does martial arts or MMA but has really bad footwork, probably don't spar or they probably don't have a realistic sparring session.

 

[windwalker099]

I don't have enough knowledge of Yiquan to tell you guys if that's what's showing below so I can only go by the titles.

Neither do I

Not a fan of the style, along with other short hand CMA styles..
While appreciating their uniqueness and historical traditions of the past.

The fight commentary clip has a
suggested link for those unable to view utube

"Full match on this douyin channel: 北京大成拳求真学社"

This is why one of my biggest drives is to do my best to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu. So that no one can say that Jow Ga is useless.

Very commendable,
Always good to see those providing example's for others to see.

Something I did back in the 70s... Ultimately finding it pointless, although I did learn a lot about what I was looking for and met many good MA people to train with at the time.

You and KF Wang, post video's of you'r "work"
very good...always enjoy watching videos of what people write about.

Lots of things have changed since the 70s...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe the original creators of the techniques did use logical sequences.

The 1st move of GST is "ward off". You use left hand to comb hair your opponent's right punch, you then use left hand as control hand. The missing part is the heavy hand after that.

Why there is no heavy hand after Taiji "ward off"? This make Taiji to be less likely as a valid striking art.

 

[Appledog]

I am profoundly disaapointed by the "yiquan master in blue".

The video marked 'cui ruibin' shows some interesting techniques, and is the absolute minimum I would have expected from the "yiquan master in blue". Again, a profound sense of disappointment.

 

[Same Trick]

You can be sure, but you don't know. The statement is based on ignorance.
Maybe things have changed in the past 20yrs or so..

In my teachers group it was common for people to stop by from other practices, some stayed finding something quite different. Others, some noted teachers, or students of them visited

In some aspects found my teacher to be kind of unique, he was quite open about allowing others to feel his practice.
Invited by others within the group...

I've had a couple of people from the US meet him awhile back...always a good time.
A lot of his students had many yrs of practice in other arts, it was interesting.

For those no one knew, he had people there that handled things...
kinda sad at times watching what happened to them. This was China, what could one say..
my teacher in his 80s at the time I knew him...



Have read books in English long ago about the art...the creation of it.
Do you feel this accounting is true ?






It might account for some of your feelings about the practice.
Asked if you could do some of things shown, as it mentioned the "practice of Yiquan can develop this ability"




If they do not acknowledge style or teacher.
Then why mention them ?


The OP mentioned "Hunyuan" giving his description of it with out any reference points photos, video ect.

The teacher talks about the same thing, providing photos and videos of his practice
What he "shows" aligns with my experience although the verbiage is different.

About Yiquan(Yao Zhongxun linage) conduct on challenges you can get an idea on that in part 5 of that interview. I’m sure(yes I use “sure”) non of the serious Yiquan practitioners went to your teacher to try him out.

The thing on Yao Zhongxun issuing force from distance, you have already brought up in this thread and I outlined my thoughts on that. And I took time read through the whole interview, it is a very good, interview, in it you find answers to some of the questions you ask - competitions,sanda/boxing, “KungFu” chalkenges, Hunyuan and what it means in context of CMA…..

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I find this video. Does anybody know what happen at

- 1.10,
- 2.13,
- 2.38,
- 3.27?

 

[Same Trick]

"We have a great showcase of two different Yiquan (aka dacheng quan) vs mma sparring. In the first match, we have the Yiquan Master (Qiao Huan Xiang) taking on a mma guy in kickboxing.

In the second match, we have the same yiquan master taking on another mma guy (most likely a coach) in boxing. Let's see what great lessons we can learn and observe, especially about body mechanics and fascia slings.

Full match on this douyin channel: 北京大成拳求真学社"

Yeah that video channel I can see the content, however I don’t know who that guy is, his Yiquan basic practice looks as he has a great long way to still go, but he is putting on gloves to spar and it seem he do it against trained boxers, also he do sparring(contact) with sticks. I mean, he is getting valuable experience..
But now this wasn’t about diggin up Yiquan vs whatever videos, it was you claim your teacher was confronted by a “yiquan” guy at his place, too bad there’s no videos do dig up on that ?
Anyway if we want to look at oldtimers, there should be videos of Yao Zhongxun’s sons and Cui Ruibin doing and explaining freehand PH and some sparring to find on YouTube

 

[windwalker099]

About Yiquan(Yao Zhongxun linage) conduct on challenges you can get an idea on that in part 5 of that interview. I’m sure(yes I use “sure”) non of the serious Yiquan practitioners went to your teacher to try him out.

"try him out"

Maybe English not being your first language, the meaning is not clear..

I've met teachers in different parks...meet and great them as follow practitioners.
Some allow one to feel some of their work, others do not....

But now this wasn’t about diggin up Yiquan vs whatever videos, it was you claim your teacher was confronted by a “yiquan” guy at his place, too bad there’s no videos do dig up on that ?

No, it was about the Yiquan teacher Cheuk Fung explaining what he felt "Hunyuan" strength was and your comments about it.

I mentioned we had a Yiquan guy stop by a long while back "2002", interacting with my teacher and some of the other students there

"interacting"

not confronting , not challenging ect..

The thing on Yao Zhongxun issuing force from distance, you have already brought up in this thread and I outlined my thoughts on that. And I took time read through the whole interview, it is a very good, interview, in it you find answers to some of the questions you ask - competitions,sanda/boxing, “KungFu” chalkenges, Hunyuan and what it means in context of CMA…..

The interview pointed out 2 things.

1. " C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan"
2. " Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability."

You still have not addressed the question directly
No need, find your responses interesting..also unexpected.

The ability mentioned, something this teacher explains as part of his practice.
Some might find it interesting, as I do, while others may question it, as many do.

Anyway if we want to look at oldtimers, there should be videos of Yao Zhongxun’s sons and Cui Ruibin doing and explaining freehand PH and some sparring to find on YouTube

Have seen some of them...
As mentioned not a fan of the style, nor most of the short hand CMA I've seen over the yrs.
much of it developed in a different time for various reasons.

Traditional cultural artifacts of a past age, along with CMA in general.
Most teachers who have their students enter into Sanda or other competitive venues update or change their methods....out of necessity..

My point in posting the teachers work Cheuk Fung. was that he addressed "Hunyuan strength" with media, demo's of what he wrote...whether one agrees with it or not.

 

[Same Trick]

"try him out"

Maybe English not being your first language, the meaning is not clear..

I've met teachers in different parks...meet and great them as follow practitioners.
Some allow one to feel some of their work, others do not....



No, it was about the Yiquan teacher Cheuk Fung explaining what he felt "Hunyuan" strength was and your comments about it.

I mentioned we had a Yiquan guy stop by a long while back "2002", interacting with my teacher and some of the other students there

"interacting"

not confronting , not challenging ect..





The interview pointed out 2 things.

1. " C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan"
2. " Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability."

You still have not addressed the question directly
No need, find your responses interesting..also unexpected.

The ability mentioned, something this teacher explains as part of his practice.
Some might find it interesting, as I do, while others may question it, as many do.



Have seen some of them...
As mentioned not a fan of the style, nor most of the short hand CMA I've seen over the yrs.
much of it developed in a different time for various reasons.

Traditional cultural artifacts of a past age, along with CMA in general.
Most teachers who have their students enter into Sanda or other competitive venues update or change their methods....out of necessity..

My point in posting the teachers work Cheuk Fung. was that he addressed "Hunyuan strength" with media, demo's of what he wrote...whether one agrees with it or not.

Yes my previous comment was partly addressing that Cheng Fung link you posted, but you also added - “
Interesting enough we had a Yi Chuan guy stop by to visit my teacher...
He wondered about my teachers practice, and wanted to test it.”
And notice you wrote “test” not as you now say “interact”, but to be fair I’m mistaken too by writing “try out” even if that cling more similar to “test”

anyway, about the Cui Ruibin interview , you keep posting that small part of it , if you read the whole interview you get a clearer picture that answer the eventual questions you have on the topic - my own theorizing on it was that phsycology play a major part, I wrote about that previously in this thread.

You asked me if I can do what’s done to multiple people’s as shown in the picture of your Cheung Fung article , I answered of course not, and that’s not something that any of the serious Yiquan teachers demonstrate either, as you can read here from the Cui Ruibin interview-
I couldn’t grasp the requirement of straightening the body and slightly caving the chest [han xiong] at the same time. M Yao took up a combat stance and said “Feel my chest”. As soon as I touched the centre of his chest, I instantly understood”
Issuing force toward another party is done during PH and sparring

The way Cheung Fung “demonstrate” “ Hunyuan” force is theatrical and misleading

 

[windwalker099]

The way Cheung Fung “demonstrate” “ Hunyuan” force is theatrical and misleading.

Why not post a link for comparison, so others can see,,,
and understand your viewpoint ?

I did read the article, the point I was trying to make. Was that there was a conscious choice.. to not recognize this aspect.
Done according to the article so people wouldn't get the wrong idea and waste their time trying to do something that would come anyway in time...whether one focused on it or not.

To understand why this might be so, one would have to look at the theory,
As shown in another thread not gonna happen..

And notice you wrote “test” not as you now say “interact”, but to be fair I’m mistaken too by writing “try out” even if that cling more similar to “test”

Test, interaction,,,maybe a poor choice of words, to me they are the same.
When I test my work with others, we interact...

In most taiji circles, its done in different ways depending on what is being tested.

 

[Same Trick]

Why not post a link for comparison, so others can see,,,
and understand your viewpoint ?






Test, interaction,,,maybe a poor choice of words, to me they are the same.
When I test my work with others, we interact...

In most taiji circles, its done in different ways depending on what is being tested.

Yes Sure, here’s first the link of your friend Cheuk Fung

Yi Chuan Kung Fu - Hunyuan Strength

And here the next link you can see the picture of Yao Chengguang Yao Zhongxun’s son

Modern Yiquan – Yiquan Academy


About poor chooice of words, yes perhaps we both did, so no need for giving me that exaggerated reaction



"try him out"

Maybe English not being your first language, the meaning is not clear..”

 

[windwalker099]

Yao Chengguang Pushing Hands

Thanks for the link..

As noted, not a fan of the style...

Interesting you link mentions White crane being part of the mix...

"Apart from xingyiquan/xinyiquan he was especially inspired by baguazhang (pakua chang), taijiquan (t’ai chi ch’uan) and baihequan (pak hok kuen)."

"Master Cheuk Fung is a direct lineage disciple in Hop Gar, Yi Chuan, Mok Gar, and Lung Ying (Southern Dragon), and is also respected for his expertise in the Tung Be system of kung fu. "

Cheuk Fung is said to be Hop Ga....

Didn't see much of the style in either one...Although can understand why some would want to use some of it.
The foot work and long arm are quite interesting....

 

[Same Trick]

Yao Chengguang Pushing Hands

Thanks for the link..

As noted, not a fan of the style...

Interesting you link mentions White crane being part of the mix...

"Apart from xingyiquan/xinyiquan he was especially inspired by baguazhang (pakua chang), taijiquan (t’ai chi ch’uan) and baihequan (pak hok kuen)."

"Master Cheuk Fung is a direct lineage disciple in Hop Gar, Yi Chuan, Mok Gar, and Lung Ying (Southern Dragon), and is also respected for his expertise in the Tung Be system of kung fu. "

Cheuk Fung is said to be Hop Ga....

Didn't see much of the style in either one...Although can understand why some would want to use some of it.
The foot work and long arm are quite interesting....

The story is well known within Yiquan community, while WangXiangzhai was in Fujian province he interacted with a Baiheiquan master and wang acknowledge the WC masters high skill in PH while in free sparring the economy master was no so much a match for Wang.
Wang served as martial arts instructor for the army in Fujian

 

[windwalker099]

The story is well known within Yiquan community, while WangXiangzhai was in Fujian province he interacted with a Baiheiquan master and wang acknowledge the WC masters high skill in PH while in free sparring the economy master was no so much a match for Wang.

Was it the Fujian White Crane style
Link to the story would be interesting reading.

One of Wong’s most popular tales is his return to Guangdong. In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. “Either the challenger was maimed or killed,” noted Chin. “He never let one challenger leave his school without injury. He was a master of using the
technique of cruelty.”

The White crane I am talking about is Tibetan White Crane.
very different...

No push hands training that I'm aware of..
"interactions" were through sparring.

 

[Same Trick]

The story is well known within Yiquan community, while WangXiangzhai was in Fujian province he interacted with a Baiheiquan master and wang acknowledge the WC masters high skill in PH while in free sparring the economy master was no so much a match for Wang.
Wang served as martial arts instructor for the army in Fujian

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