Tai Chi Combat Self Defense

[ChenAn]

Traditionally how do you learn Tai Chi to start to learn how to defend yourself? Ok I understand it takes many years to master Tai Chi. But there has to be elements of training to so a practitioner can use something right away or quickly.

You have to find a good qualified teacher to start with. It’s not easy to say the least. I had to travel overseas to find mine.


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[JowGaWolf]

Traditionally how do you learn Tai Chi to start to learn how to defend yourself?

It's like everything else. Before you learn how to do use it to defend yourself, you have to learn how to do the basics and understand the concepts and mechanics of it. You'll learn how to use the foundational concepts and principals long before you actually learn how to apply the actual techniques. These will actually start to bleed into what you already know.

For example, I suck at Tai Chi push hands, but I practice it enough to where I became more sensitive to the movements of my opponent, and as a result, this helped me greately with my grappling. I could feel where my opponent was weak in structure, so instead of trying to meet force with force, I apply force where there is least resistance. Real world application of this would be. Someone tries to take me down with a single leg or take down, or even a double leg take down. All of their energy is moving forward, so instead of me trying to stop forward movement, I can feel where they aren't pushing. In this case if everything is moving forward then there is no resistance against side way movement, Even better there is no resistance to twisting motion. So instead of sprawling I simply allow my opponent's forward motion while I add twisting motion to it.
See 1:03 on in the video below. Play it at the slowest speed and you'll see me apply this.

The technique that I did wasn't a Tai Chi technique, but I did use what I learned in Yang Tai Chi to know when to start the twisting and how to allow the forward movement to continue. When you watch it in slow motion you can see that the forward movement never stops.

 

[JowGaWolf]

good qualified teacher to start with. It’s not easy to say the least.

Very difficult. When I first started, I found people who were good at Tai Chi movement but, I couldn't find anyone who had a real understanding of the applications and the techniques. It was like I was only finding people who had half of the knowledge. I didn't find a good Tai Chi teacher until I joined a martial arts school for the purpose of learning something other than Tai Chi. Had my teacher not been interested in the the fighting uses of Tai Chi, I would have never learned what I currently know.

Now I get to start my search all over again so I can continue my Tai Chi studies. I just don't know if it will be Yang or Chen style. I just want a good teacher who sees it as a martial arts vs a fitness exercise.

 

[ChenAn]

Very difficult. When I first started, I found people who were good at Tai Chi movement but, I couldn't find anyone who had a real understanding of the applications and the techniques. It was like I was only finding people who had half of the knowledge. I didn't find a good Tai Chi teacher until I joined a martial arts school for the purpose of learning something other than Tai Chi. Had my teacher not been interested in the the fighting uses of Tai Chi, I would have never learned what I currently know.

Now I get to start my search all over again so I can continue my Tai Chi studies. I just don't know if it will be Yang or Chen style. I just want a good teacher who sees it as a martial arts vs a fitness exercise.

Yes it tough especially for someone who is not familiar with taiji. There are lot of misleading information and teachers that can use carrot stick that leads to nowhere.

P.S. Nice vid ! That’s is the spirit!


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[macher]

It's like everything else. Before you learn how to do use it to defend yourself, you have to learn how to do the basics and understand the concepts and mechanics of it. You'll learn how to use the foundational concepts and principals long before you actually learn how to apply the actual techniques. These will actually start to bleed into what you already know.

For example, I suck at Tai Chi push hands, but I practice it enough to where I became more sensitive to the movements of my opponent, and as a result, this helped me greately with my grappling. I could feel where my opponent was weak in structure, so instead of trying to meet force with force, I apply force where there is least resistance. Real world application of this would be. Someone tries to take me down with a single leg or take down, or even a double leg take down. All of their energy is moving forward, so instead of me trying to stop forward movement, I can feel where they aren't pushing. In this case if everything is moving forward then there is no resistance against side way movement, Even better there is no resistance to twisting motion. So instead of sprawling I simply allow my opponent's forward motion while I add twisting motion to it.
See 1:03 on in the video below. Play it at the slowest speed and you'll see me apply this.

The technique that I did wasn't a Tai Chi technique, but I did use what I learned in Yang Tai Chi to know when to start the twisting and how to allow the forward movement to continue. When you watch it in slow motion you can see that the forward movement never stops.

Nice. Looks like you spar a lot? Many years ago when I was practicing Bagua our teacher focused on application as much as form and we sparred a lot. Unfortunately he moved to the west coast and haven’t found a Bagua or Tai Chi teacher similar since.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Been watching this guys channel...

formlessfighter

He seems to teach in a way to apply the functionality of the forms. I visited 3 Tai Chi schools and so far haven’t seen Tai Chi taught this way.

I don't know enough to say that he's wrong, but I watched some of the videos of techniques that I was familiar with and I can only say, that's not how I learned the technique or understand it. I'm specifically referring to this technique.

Keep in mind I watched this without sound, so I can't here what he's saying, I'm just going on what I'm seeing.

Here's how I understand it. The move that he's referring to is one of those techniques where 2 things happen at the same time. One hand "defends" the other hand "prepares", There is forward body movement like it is in the form. It's like what we were saying before. Everything moves together. I'm not saying that it can't be applied as he's showing it. I'm just saying that I would have never been train to do one thing at one time, which is what he's showing.

In reality there is 3 things going on at the same time if you count the preparation of forward movement with the footwork which he's not using. My sifu would have had me flow through the entire movement which is done in Yang Tai Chi. The movement looks simple, but there is a lot of stuff that is actually working when you do it. I don't know if he intentionally left stuff out, or if what you see is how he understands it. It's difficult to tell without the sound lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Nice. Looks like you spar a lot? Many years ago when I was practicing Bagua our teacher focused on application as much as form and we sparred a lot. Unfortunately he moved to the west coast and haven’t found a Bagua or Tai Chi teacher similar since.

I try to spar whenever I can. It's just so important when it comes to learning martial arts. It has to be light enough for you to be able to make mistakes and take risks without going to the hospital for it lol. A lot of understanding is gained with sparring and failing. When I was teaching I had one day out of the week dedicated to sparring and learning how to apply techniques in sparring. The class was for 2 hours, which was longer than the regular classes. There was a lot of lecturing, concepts, drilling, and me shouting "trust the technique," "deal with the lead hand," and "stop bailing out of the technique."

It's really difficult to find teachers like that because most people don't want to take martial arts to learn how to fight. They want to take it for health and exercise and for the assumption that they can use it, when the need arises. If people train it to actually learn how to fight using it, then they would gain everything that they seek and more.

 

[JowGaWolf]

P.S. Nice vid ! That’s is the spirit!

Thanks. it's like riding a bike. I can talk about it all day, but eventually I'll have to get on it, if I ever hope to be able to ride it. lol

 

[macher]

I was the opposite. For me Relax was the right translation because I'm naturally tense and Jow Ga training just makes that worst for me. When I first started Tai Chi it was like I was doing the robot. lol.

A lot of westerners tend to believe that power comes form tension and as a result, we lose a lot of the power that we would have if we relaxed. But, you are exactly right, the translations aren't as accurate as they could be or should be.

When I was learning Bagua years ago to learn how to strike for example we were taught loose strikes like being a rag doll which would transition into Fa Jin.

 

[DanT]

True Tai Chi combat training involves more sparring and conditioning than anything else. Do your forms after you sparred 20 rounds and ran 5 miles and see how you feel.

 

[ChenAn]

True Tai Chi combat training involves more sparring and conditioning than anything else. Do your forms after you sparred 20 rounds and ran 5 miles and see how you feel.

Authentic taiji involve hard work, but nothing what you describe here.


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[macher]

Authentic taiji involve hard work, but nothing what you describe here.


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I guess my question should be how to make Taji functional.

 

[ChenAn]

I guess my question should be how to make Taji functional.

Taiji is not about beat **** out of yourself to make things factional . There are plenty of combative sports that can embrace that physical approach.

Few thing to consider. Taiji will not work for everyone. It requires more time spent to get even little combative skills. Taiji can be practiced into advanced age and practitioner still can retain combative skills. Not of that is true for those method that require external approach and therefore can only be used while practitioner young and fit




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[JowGaWolf]

I guess my question should be how to make Taji functional.

Tai chi techniques are already functional. It's not the system that you have to make function. You are the one that has to be be made functional and the only way to do that is to spar with the purpose of learning how to use Tai Chi techniques. If you go in with the mind set of winning or beating someone then you'll greatly slow down your learning process. Spar just hard enough so that you can afford to be hit or kicked in the face when you get a Tai Chi application wrong. When this happens try to figure out what you did wrong or at least try to figure out why you got hit when you tried to apply the technique.

Video tape your sparring so you can spend hours trying to understand what happened. Did you apply the wrong technique? was your timing off? did you bail out on the technique? Did you force the technique? Did you almost get the technique right? and Did you shortcut your technique? are just some of the few questions that you should ask yourself.

After that go back and practice, and drill until it's time to spar again. Try again. Fail again. Try again. Gain some understanding. Succeed. Move to the next technique and repeat until you Gain some understanding of how the technique works and not how you think it should work.

There will be a lot of failures but don't think of it as failure. Think of it as learning. When people learn to play an instrument, they will have a lot of failures and a lot of mistakes before they get it right. Martial Arts is the same way. Learn by doing. Learn by failing.


You also have to have a lot of patience with the learning process and yourself. Tai Chi is very complex in comparison to some of the other Martial Arts systems so it's going to take a while just to grasp some of the basic concepts. This doesn't mean you are dumb. It just means that Tai Chi is very complex. You'll be fine as long as you have the patience for it and a good teacher.

 

[DanT]

Authentic taiji involve hard work, but nothing what you describe here.


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Whatever "authentic" means is irrelevant. OP is interested in effective training for combat, not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.

 

[ChenAn]

Whatever "authentic" means is irrelevant. OP is interested in effective training for combat, not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.

Lol whatever fits your believes. One thing for sure - there no way to avoid getting old except dying young


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[JowGaWolf]

not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.

I think the entire concept of Internal Chi is often abused and greatly misunderstood. Too many people make it out to be something magical and it's not. Then you have the "Zen" people that make it into something that it's not. Like trying to connect with the universe and be all about peace. Stuff like that breeds an inaccurate understanding of Tai Chi and Internal systems in general.

If you were to train Tai Chi you will discover that all of your focus is Internal with external systems you will discover that almost all of your focus is External. I think if people kept it this simple then it would lose a lot of the mystical nonsense that people have about it.

 

[ChenAn]

“fa li” can be translated into external physical force. However, the question is not whether one can exert a force, but rather how this force is generated. That where I think most taiji mysteries are born from. What people attribute to “internal” is actually finesse of gongfu - meaning same amount of power produced with less physical demand. And the reason for that is not mystery but rather different biomechanics from conventional combative methods.


Now, in my line we do have our own conditioning that involve a lot of equipment/tools. Each tools serves its purpose in developing stamina and physical fitness within the method. But for example my competitive full contact experience earlier in life brought absolutely no value to taiji ( which I discovered only later in life). Well may be a little - I can fight without taiji lol

In my practice, I had to teach a fitness and marine corps martial art instructors . Both well conditioned guys, yet struggled a bit with Chen conditioning. Are they weak ? Of course not. But whenever we went over usage they laid back on their excess physical strength. Where I could spend 30% they used 110%. And also many techniques did not work for them and often they had to force it in, which quickly lost meaning of taiji in the first place.








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[macher]

Whatever "authentic" means is irrelevant. OP is interested in effective training for combat, not old people martial arts. Training should be external if you want combat skills. "Internal" Chi power is all nonsense.

If Taiji is similar to Bagua then it can be learnt to get skilled for fighting or self right away. The way I was taught Bagua years ago was loose striking that was to be a transition to Fa Jin. Our teacher said it takes at least 5 years and another 5 years to start on higher levels of Fa Jin but that doesn’t mean you can’t start to learn how to fight right away with Bagua principles.

Bagua speaking I think there’s a big misconception out there that if you’re not doing Fa Jin you’re not doing Bagua similar with Taiji.

I find it hard to believe that originally Taiji wasn’t taught in a way to start to learn to defend yourself without Fa Jin but the use of loose striking or body mechanics.

Why do you have to wait the time it takes for Fa Jin before you’re able to utilize your Taiji?

 

[mograph]

I understand it takes many years to master Tai Chi. But there has to be elements of training to so a practitioner can use something right away or quickly.

You might want to look into why you would make that assumption. I think it's because many schools want to keep students, and most of us (westerners or urbanites) have short attention spans, and we want to learn a technique that (we think) will defend ourselves right away.

In my opinion, many "old school" schools teach slowly because they want you to get the basics so you can practice properly. A good teacher will teach you in a way that will allow you to fight without too much thinking, so it has to be ingrained through repetition, and accessible through implicit memory ("boom! done!"), not explicit ("do this like this, then do this next") memory. Also, there has to be a consistent set of principles that need to be ingrained, usually full-body usage, and most westerners don't grasp that easily. Once those principles are ingrained implicitly, they can be applied quickly and intuitively.
I think that old school teachers also assume that you want to learn to fight against good fighters rather than drunks, and that the quick 'n' dirty techniques only work against poor fighters.