Taekwondo/American Karate question?

[RCastillo]

Ok this will be posted in both Kenpo and Taekwondo forums. Here is the question. Kenpo is called American Karate, but when I go to dojangs and schools here in Texas, they say they teach American Karate, but its Taekwondo. So who is teaching American Karate? Kenpoists or Taekwondo practioners?

The only time I've heard that in Texas is when they've "Americanized" TKD.

They use less Korean terminology, if any, focus away from the history, modify the forms, discard traditional techniques.

So, I guess it's us Kenpo people that teach"American Karate?" :idunno:

 

[DragonFooter]

I mean can the Americanized version of taekwondo be called 'American Foot Fist Way'? so not to be confused with (WTF)taekwondo or (ITF/GTF)taekwon-do? Taekwondoists already having headaches characterising whos who..ya know...

 

[DragonFooter]

The only time I've heard that in Texas is when they've "Americanized" TKD.

They use less Korean terminology, if any, focus away from the history, modify the forms, discard traditional techniques.

So, I guess it's us Kenpo people that teach"American Karate?" :idunno:

IF it's got no history no forms no similar techniques that u call traditional my fren..why call it Tae kwon do at all?? In fact why want to use the korean term at all? Call it 'American Foot Fist Way' or sumthin...
You can't call Chinatown as China coz it doesn't have similar history, culture , etc etc. (ok maybe bad analogy but wat the hell)

 

[Touch Of Death]

IF it's got no history no forms no similar techniques that u call traditional my fren..why call it Tae kwon do at all?? In fact why want to use the korean term at all? Call it 'American Foot Fist Way' or sumthin...
You can't call Chinatown as China coz it doesn't have similar history, culture , etc etc. (ok maybe bad analogy but wat the hell)

More lessons get sold and the school stays open longer if you call what you teach "Tae Kwon Do" instead of "Joe's Hand and Foot Smackaroo" :asian:
Sean

 

[kwanjang]

I didn't say an American-born Instructor couldn't substantially change Tae Kwon Do in a meaningful way, I said none has. And by that I mean what I stated before: changing physical, philosophical, and technical aspects in a substantial way to create something new but equally valid.
I have seen plenty of American Instructors create mish-mosh styles because they studied Kuk Sool Won, Hapkido, etc. and give themselves 10th Dan rank. Combat Hapkido and others comes to mind.

Actually, the founder of CH was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner In fact, he still runs the Independent TKD org.

 

[Han-Mi]

One of my colleagues is getting ready to start his own school, and he plans on teaching a class that is, instead of traditional TKD, a mixture of all his own knowledge. I know that he will not give himself a new rank or anything, but he will name his new style eventually. It's not that it is all completely new moves, because they all have the same basic moves anyway. But it will be a mixture of what he finds to be the best of his knowledge.

Face it, even Bruce Lee used techniques from other styles, he just organized them differently.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Actually, the founder of CH was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner In fact, he still runs the Independent TKD org.

Yes, John Pellegrini. Another Instructor who never met a magazine he didn't want to be in . I wonder how many ranks he claims after his name.
Someone on another forum was talking about Pellegrini and his credentials. I don't remember the exact words, but big surprise Pellegrini's credentials are less than impeccable. Something to the effect that he learned his technique by attending seminars and scraping together his knowlege from various sources rather than studying under an Instructor.
Apparently he also created "Combat Hapkido" by changing the original Hapkido technique he learned to be, in his eyes, more practical.
Nice red uniform he wears, by the way.

 

[RCastillo]

IF it's got no history no forms no similar techniques that u call traditional my fren..why call it Tae kwon do at all?? In fact why want to use the korean term at all? Call it 'American Foot Fist Way' or sumthin...
You can't call Chinatown as China coz it doesn't have similar history, culture , etc etc. (ok maybe bad analogy but wat the hell)

Very true. I forgot to mention that the ones that I know that do that, call it Korean Karate! :idunno: :asian:

 

[RCastillo]

More lessons get sold and the school stays open longer if you call what you teach "Tae Kwon Do" instead of "Joe's Hand and Foot Smackaroo" :asian:
Sean

Very true, good point! :asian:

 

[kwanjang]

Apparently he also created "Combat Hapkido" by changing the original Hapkido technique he learned to be, in his eyes, more practical.

Sure did not make too many friends in the HKD world by using that name

 

[TigerWoman]

1. Not bowing out of religious fear
2. Using colored uniforms to make students feel special
4. Removing Oriental philosophy and putting Christian philosophy in its place. Why not explain how Oriental philosophy and Christian philosophy are similar?

1. Not bowing to a national flag of Korea. Instead bowing to the flag of the United States ONLY. We are not the military of Korea. Nothing about religious FEAR. The yin/yang or um/yang symbol conflicts with Christianity in its representation and for Christians, it is offensive to bow to a symbol based in Buddhism.(see below) All Christians fear God but we also love God as a Father.

2. Both colored or white V-Neck TKD uniforms are not "traditional" as they have been changed through time from the original underwear/sweat garments that the first Tae Kwon practioners used.(see uniforms thread) Colored uniforms are earned from rank advance and are a better color laundry wise. This is about change.

4. Quote from "Black Belt Taekwondo" by Yeon Hwan Park and Jon Gerrard, Page 5: If we were to express the philosophical goal of our art in a single statement, it would be that Tae Kwon Do training is meant to bring its practioners into harmony with the universe. Rooted in Buddhist teachings, the core philosophy of Tae Kwon Do is based on a view of the universe as a dynamic environment in a perpetual state of change to which opposite forces are constantly adjusting themselves to maintain the harmonious balance of the cosmos." Both Taekwondo and Christianity have good morals, that is WHY it is easy to combine them. But Buddhist teachings such as this about the universe is NOT in line with God and Jesus Christ.

No disrespect intended, MTKD, but no change means you would be stuck in the days of first practice. There has been change since then. Not all change is good, some change can be good. I think practitioners of today's TKD need to re-examine their values not to downgrade them or make them weak but to make them stronger. History has shown change that has made it stronger. Today we really need to "see" what is valuable to keep and what to change. Because, I believe, some change is inevitable.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Tiger Woman,
For some reason your post reminds me of that short story, "The Lottery". Even when the reader realizes that something is seriously wrong or needs to change, the story provides some old guy complaining that things have changed to much already. :asian:
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

The funny thing is, is that I'm saying change will come, abeit wisely, but am older. Well, such is the way of a lot of things in life. My daughter doesn't like the victorian french style of furniture like me, she likes the retro look. The more we try to change stuff, the more they seem to stay the same. The values that are important will be kept despite change.

 

[DragonFooter]

One of my colleagues is getting ready to start his own school, and he plans on teaching a class that is, instead of traditional TKD, a mixture of all his own knowledge. I know that he will not give himself a new rank or anything, but he will name his new style eventually. It's not that it is all completely new moves, because they all have the same basic moves anyway. But it will be a mixture of what he finds to be the best of his knowledge.

Face it, even Bruce Lee used techniques from other styles, he just organized them differently.

Yeah but Bruce Lee calls his style Jeet Kun Do..and it still sells

 

[MichiganTKD]

Sure did not make too many friends in the HKD world by using that name

Who needs friends when you can sell videos in magazines, give seminars to anyone who will show up, and laugh all the way to the bank?

 

[kwanjang]

Who needs friends when you can sell videos in magazines, give seminars to anyone who will show up, and laugh all the way to the bank?

Right you are

 

[MichiganTKD]

Tigerwoman,
I agree, change is inevitable. However, change must be beneficial to everyone and must be by people qualified to institute change, otherwise you would have chaos as people would do whatever they wanted.
Some change is good. For example, Tae Kwon Do technique changed years ago to longer kicking style, more pivoting, and less choppy motions. These changes were designed to allow more effective technique that was less hard on the joints. The fighters who adapted to these changes were much harder to beat. It was demonstrated that these changes were beneficial.
Example two: In my class, I have adapted new warmup/stretching regimens that minimize ballistic stretching and encourage more static, yoga-based stretching. the result is students who gain more flexibility without the risk for muscle tears.
However, not all change is good. Adapting colored uniforms to make class more exciting is, to me, trivial. How are colored uniforms going to help? Refusing to bow to the flag of the nation that originated Tae Kwon Do is a serious breach of protocol and etiquette. Stetching, some basics, and forms may vary from class to class, but protocol should be standard no matter where you go. I attended TKD class in Spain. I don't practice Taegeuk forms, and basics were a little different, but the bowing protocol didn't change.
If your religion can't tolerate bowing to flags containing um/yang symbols, which are not religious BTW, it doesn't say much for your religion.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

".....1. Not bowing to a national flag of Korea. Instead bowing to the flag of the United States ONLY. We are not the military of Korea. Nothing about religious FEAR. The yin/yang or um/yang symbol conflicts with Christianity in its representation and for Christians, it is offensive to bow to a symbol based in Buddhism.(see below) All Christians fear God but we also love God as a Father. ......."

I don't know that KMA practitioners are very well served by your comments. If you read the history of Korean martial science you will find that Korean martial practice is no more representative of Buddhist beliefs than the American military is a reflection of Judeo-Christian beliefs. In both cases there is an influence of beliefs behind the ethics of the activity, but I don't see Muslims or Buddhists or Wiccan avoiding the US military because its a Judeo-Christian organization. Its not, though the influence is apparent.

In addition your comment about not being in the Korean military is well taken. I would ask you to consider that the origins of the KMA deserve some token of respect, even if the Korean culture itself does not often practice the values that it preaches to others. In my own classes we do not bow to any flag or organization, but rather to each other as we circle up for a class or club meeting.

Finally, I think one needs to go rather lightly in invoking the "fear" of God. If my life experience growing up in the Western culture is any example, I don't know that Christians are governed anymore by their "fear" than Muslims are governed by "submission" and Jews are governed by "law". People are people and are prone to "talking the talk" while avoiding "walking the walk". It doesn't make them bad or terrible--- just human. IMVVHO this why some of us have elected to follow the Warriors Path. We find in the WP guidance for developing the Character necessary for conducting ourselves with Integrity.

BTW: The only reason I have taken this opportunity to write at length about this is that we don't often get a chance to actually discuss the values associated with our training. Seems folks would rather talk about just about anything other than living by a Code by which they might later be held accountable, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce