Taegue Il Jang application

[miguksaram]

That is a good question IMO. To play devil's advocate, does it matter, if we are merely analysing the poomsae at the base, physical level? Left walking stance, left down block, right walking stance, right lunge punch. Do we need to know more than that to pose alternative meanings of what those 4 discrete techniques can mean in conjunction?

What most people see is exactly what you described, left down block, right walking stance, right lunge punch. What they sometimes fail to see are the intricate subtle moves in transition from point 'A' to point 'B' which is also an important part of the technique. If I want to take apart a car and then try to reassemble it in a different way, shouldn't I understand how that particular car is supposed to function in the first place?

 

[puunui]

Could this be what instructors at the KuKKiwon are eluding to?

Something like that.

 

[dancingalone]

What most people see is exactly what you described, left down block, right walking stance, right lunge punch. What they sometimes fail to see are the intricate subtle moves in transition from point 'A' to point 'B' which is also an important part of the technique. If I want to take apart a car and then try to reassemble it in a different way, shouldn't I understand how that particular car is supposed to function in the first place?

OK. That ties back to what was said a while back in the thread about following the one correct way as defined to perform a form versus the idea when or if it becomes OK to personalize things. Two entirely valid approaches depending on the art. For KKW, it's the first one.

 

[puunui]

I find this similar to the horse stance and 'chambering' from the hips. Often taught, as mentioned, as a 'chambering' movement before the strike...you just don't see many people walking around in a horse stance, during a fight or in sparring with their hands chambered on their hips. So, the horse stance and the 'chambering' must therefore have a more useful, practical purpose. And they do. The horse stance of course lowers your center of gravity which is useful in a plethora of defensive and offensive techniques.

First of all, there is no "horse stance" in kukki taekwondo. There is juchum seogi, which is similar, and it is used extensively (or at least used to), not so much for the lowering of the center of gravity more so that it allows someone to easily move in any direction. And while the hands are not "chambered at the hips", they are down a lot of time by one's side. Your comments above, again underline the point that you have little, if any, experience with taekwondo competition, which is ironic since you constantly criticize and attack it. How can you make comments about something that you know nothing about?

 

[puunui]

And this is a great point to look at. The originators of kata (be they Chinese or Okinawan) knew what they were doing. They wouldn't put something into a kata that was impractical. As I mentioned above, most folks just don't fight with hands chambered on hips, nor do they block as is demonstrated in a form.

Maybe not today, but can you say for sure that isn't how people fought way back when? Like Revolutionary War tactics, no one would fight like that today, stand in a line, powder up and load their musket and then fire in unison against another group that was doing the exact same thing. But that is what they did back then.

 

[puunui]

When have I claimed to do KKW TKD?

Don't know if you ever claimed to "do KKW TKD", but you do claim lineage through the Han Moo Kwan, whose kwan jang supports 100% the kukkiwon curriculum, and always has. In addition, you also claim relatively high rank in taekwondo and stated that while you do not have kukkiwon dan certification, you could easily get that if you wanted to. And given your prior statements about how you feel that someone should know the curriculum before getting the rank, in particular kukkiwon rank, the inference is that you understand and practice kukki taekwondo such that you are deserving of such rank. So yes, you have claimed that you "do KKW TKD". You have made a lot of claims on MT over the years.

As I've stated previously, I don't believe the majority had the experience necessary, although I fully believe that at least a few did. Regardless, this is not the direction they chose, and that is fine. However, it doesn't mean that movement sequences don't exist simply because they don't know them, or chose not to teach them. They are simply there if one chooses to use them.

The irony, again, of your position is that you never claim to know the actual secret moves contained in the forms; what you claim is that the movements must have meaning, and therefore we should go on easter egg hunts to find these hidden meanings and reverse engineer them into the forms. You have no idea whether these applications that you have created are the actual intended applications traced down from the form creators.

It has nothing to do with creating a system. It was already there. And actually, it is a part of at least some schools here in the U.S., in Australia and in Europe. You may wish to contact Simon O'Neill and/or Stuart Anslow as they do teach various applications for different forms and have written as much. It has also appeared in Totally Taekwondo as well, in several articles. And once again, if one wishes not to use, recognize or teach these applications...they don't have to teach them. If one does, then it is there for them to delve into. I know my students have enjoyed it.

Is that where you got your secret applications, from reading books and magazines?

 

[puunui]

I never asked to be considered a good source for how forms are 'generally taught' in KKW schools.

No, you just stated that the taekwondo pioneers were too inexperienced to understand and know what you and your friends have come up with through reverse engineering.

 

[puunui]

The originators of kata (be they Chinese or Okinawan) knew what they were doing.

And the originators of the Kukkiwon poomsae also knew what they were doing.

 

[puunui]

But it would seem Puunui has explained things very well in post #26 and 27. According to him, there are indeed basic defense techniques there, from Hapkido, but not well performed, that is changed, so it is of little value to the TKD practioner.

That's not what I said. I would never say something like that.

 

[puunui]

Personally I am not so much into forms applications as I am into a holistic training method with forms as an integrating and connecting activity. When I studied Jhoon Rhee TKD as a kid, I always thought hyung practice was stupid. It had nothing to do with our sparring or self-defense.

If I were so inclined, I could pick out many concepts and theories contained in the kukkiwon poomsae that are applicable for sparring. For example, the opening sequence in taeguek 3 jang has a front kick followed by two punches. For sparring, we would replace the kick with a punch and vice versa, so you would end up with a cover punch (instead of a block/kick) to stop your opponent as he was moving forward, and then double kick off that, instead of double punching. This also underlines a basic principle of taekwondo (and hapkido), which is we do with our feet, what other karate based arts do with their hands, and vice versa.

Some of the notable 'spokes' within Goju-ryu include hojo undo, kihon, renzoku kumite, kakie, bunkai kumite, and oyo (for lack of a comprehensive term) bunkai.

Do these come from Miyagi Sensei, or were they added by someone further down the chain?

Creative and effective applications derived from forms are a natural consequence of studying and practicing with a good, organized teacher - they really aren't something you have to look too hard for or shouldn't be. No 'ancient secrets'. Nothing too arcane even if you add in vital point theory.

That is a good topic in itself, the vital point theories. In fact, I believe that was the original way these hidden movements were brought out, by Dillman Sensei and his teacher Oyata Sensei, that the kata contained specific information about pressure point attacks, done in combination, and in the correct order, which would lead to a knockout. But it seems that rather critical point has been lost in favor of the all out easter egg hunt, making up all kinds of applications which may or may not have anything to do with vital point knockouts. Now, it seems anyone with an overactive imagination can claim to know the "secrets" by making up some applications and reverse engineering them into some form, whatever form.

And forms applications are not necessarily chasing things down haphazardly either. Whether by coincidence or not, IMO the Goju-ryu kata progression is very logical. The skills and physical traits built through diligent praction of one kata becomes useful, perhaps even necessary in the next following ones. It's just not written out in easy form for digestion for us, and so if we are mediocre practitioners, we never realize the beauty and function of the system in both conception and development.

That's good and if that is what is going on as far as Goju Ryu is concerned, then great. I think the problem lies in trying to take that and then adding it to kukki taekwondo and then pronouncing it has the lost information that the pioneers were too inexperienced to understand.

Various researchers like Patrick McCarthy have made efforts to link traditional karate to the typical patterns of violence today (like that haymaker we've been talking about on the boards). Some might see this as modernization. I do not. I think they're really just explaining karate in a context that we in the 'modern' era can easily relate to. Karate hasn't changed really. The techniques are the same. People still punch, people still carry knives. What was useful against a punch or knife 125 years ago is still useful today.

But is it, really? Do you really believe that the okinawan karate teachers put all that time and effort into prevailing in a self defense situation, which admittedly were few and far in between, given the disposition and nature of the Okinawan people? We are not talking about some inner city danger zone, where catching the subway is a risky proposition. Instead we are talking about a kind, generous, non violent people who do not raise their voice to each other, much less fight.

I have offered above an explanation for my interest in forms applications. It is not so much because they are neat or cool (they are). Contrary to being inefficient, I argue that studying forms fully actually offers a comprehensive path to building efficient physical qualities and effective fighting skills. Not necessarily in the 'get in a ring and kick butt' sense, but certainly for the usages karate was meant for, such as violence, unexpected or not, in the course of regular life. Karate was never meant to be a sport, though clearly it can be adapted to be a sport. Neither was it a military method to train soldiers and warriors. Those were systems using swords before they became rifles, right?

Was it meant for such individual violence? Who would be attacking these Okinawan masters, with their huge knuckles? Would you?

Where it gets interesting is that KSD seems to be trying to engage the KKW members in discussing something they have no interest in. I understand where he is coming from with his interest in pattern applications and yet I don't know that the timing of this thread was best. Maybe it's time to talk about Pyung Ahn Chodan instead (I'd be happy to participate) or wait a few weeks/months before trying again?

He wouldn't be able to participate in a pyung ahn chodan discussion either because he never learned that form either. The only karate that gets consistently mentioned by him whenever karate is brought up is Uechi Ryu, which doesn't have the Pinan kata as part of their system.

 

[puunui]

Indeed. To my knowledge, Sanchin being a notable exception, the karate kata were always more about development of physical skills and qualities.

And you don't feel the kukkiwon poomsae address physical skills and qualities? Also how is sanchin embedded with karate's journey?

 

[puunui]

I own a copy of both books but honestly haven't read much from either. They're dense reading, for my puny brain anyway, and I have ample enough to work on without introducing more influences on my karate, even if it is only in the back of my mind. I want to say I have actually met Mr. Wilder in person if he's the same guy I think he is though this was years before he wrote his books.

I have both books as well, though I can't say I have met Mr. Wilder. Never read either one either, although I have flipped through both. I just buy to buy at this point, although if someone refers to a book and quotes from it, I can whip it out and check the citation.

 

[dancingalone]

Do these come from Miyagi Sensei, or were they added by someone further down the chain?

I don't know, though it's not for lack of asking! My teacher was a student of Miyazato Sensei who learned from Miyagi Sensei. He says the bulk of what he taught me and my karate brothers was taught at the Jundokan when he studied there, though he took the liberty of formalizing some of the exercises more so than they were. Still, I only have his say so along with what I caught from a visit from one of his sempai. Ultimately, it's second hand information though.

But it seems that rather critical point has been lost in favor of the all out easter egg hunt, making up all kinds of applications which may or may not have anything to do with vital point knockouts. Now, it seems anyone with an overactive imagination can claim to know the "secrets" by making up some applications and reverse engineering them into some form, whatever form.

I agree to an extent. Lots of people taking advantage of the bunkai fad. It can be a good thing, so long as they are honest about what they have and they have a good way of eating their own dog food to see how good it is.

That's good and if that is what is going on as far as Goju Ryu is concerned, then great. I think the problem lies in trying to take that and then adding it to kukki taekwondo and then pronouncing it has the lost information that the pioneers were too inexperienced to understand.

Yeah, I think it's all water under the bridge anyway. There are plenty of karate styles founded by men of relative youth, but we give them a pass on the experience thing. Considering how TKD has endured and grown, it's time to give it its correct due.

But is it, really? Do you really believe that the okinawan karate teachers put all that time and effort into prevailing in a self defense situation, which admittedly were few and far in between, given the disposition and nature of the Okinawan people? We are not talking about some inner city danger zone, where catching the subway is a risky proposition. Instead we are talking about a kind, generous, non violent people who do not raise their voice to each other, much less fight.


Was it meant for such individual violence? Who would be attacking these Okinawan masters, with their huge knuckles? Would you?

We don't have recorded crime statistics for Okinawa during the historical period in which karate was developed, first of the Shuri lineage and then the Naha style. What we do have are legends, lore, and possibly apocryphal stories passed on about the various old masters and the fights, some deadly, they were involved in. Some of these guys were quarrelsome, probably not totally nice people, despite the generally sunny disposition of Okinawans to be sure.

So no, I don't know for sure that all this training passed down to me had an entirely combative origin to it. I can extrapolate to an extent from at least 3 sources: 1) the overt information given directly to me from my teacher and 2) the information he HASN'T given me if that makes sense and finally 3) what I can gather through reading books & articles from other karate-ka, older and younger, from multiple lineages or even speaking to them directly.

SOME karate perhaps had self-development elements introduced into it, and perhaps this type of karate is most popular and prevalent now. I've even studied Matsubayashi-ryu, one of the styles said to be influenced by Okinawan folk dance along with Nagamine Sensei's idea that karate should be a vehicle for enlightenment and peaceful resolution of conflict. But not all karate is in the same boat IMO. Back to my teacher... he made his living as a Doctor of Oriental Medicine and acupunturist. He knows plenty of ways to help people heal, yet his karate was always about destruction foremost.

I can also gauge to a degree through my students. Some of them have been in violent encounters and they have acquitted themselves well using what I taught them. I don't pretend to be a reality-based SD instructor. I'm a karate/TKD guy. I teach karate and TKD, yet my students have been able to protect themselves and others using the exact stuff practiced in my dojo. To me, that's good evidence that system I pass down was designed for fighting in the first place.

He wouldn't be able to participate in a pyung ahn chodan discussion either because he never learned that form either. The only karate that gets consistently mentioned by him whenever karate is brought up is Uechi Ryu, which doesn't have the Pinan kata as part of their system.

KSD can speak for himself, but I gathered he's been very much influenced by Iain Abernethy or at least Abernethy's videos and books. Mr. Abernethy is a Wado stylist and seems to use the Pinan kata extensively as part of his material.

 

[miguksaram]

OK. That ties back to what was said a while back in the thread about following the one correct way as defined to perform a form versus the idea when or if it becomes OK to personalize things. Two entirely valid approaches depending on the art. For KKW, it's the first one.

Like Daniel, I have no problem against boonsae. Being from a Okinawa karate background myself, I do see its value. Not only is can it help you understand what you are doing in the form in a more "live" type environment, but it can help understand the overall mechanics of the form itself. It is also fun to go outside the box and play around with the the moves to find a possible other use. I believe I posted some time ago about utilizing the knife hand block in a totally different manner. However you must first know the form technically on its own merit before moving on to such things. I also caution against statements like the pioneers of TKD never fully understood forms when they were taught them. Unless a person was in their class learning at the same time or if a person has taken classes directly from them, then a person cannot possibly know what they did or did not know about forms.

 

[dancingalone]

And you don't feel the kukkiwon poomsae address physical skills and qualities? Also how is sanchin embedded with karate's journey?

Certainly the poomsae have a physical aspect to them. I'd argue that's the main point of them in fact, even if I might sound like a heretic. TKD is a physical art after all.

Sanchin is translated as Three Battles and people often say it's about unifying the Body, Mind, and Spirit so that they work together rather than as separate and conflicting parts of ourselves. One of the few times my teacher spoke about 'self-improvement' was during a Sanchin lesson. He said Sanchin was about mastering ourselves, to control our bodies, to rid our minds of distractions, to remove self-doubt and fear. He would say ki boils down to breathing and that Goju is Air foremost, followed by Fire. I still wonder what the hell he means by that since it is counter-intuitive to what I think, but maybe I'll get it some day.

Anyway, I don't think karate kata had any meanings or signposts to them as you described in your thesis existing within the TKD poomsae. Or if they ever did, this is lost to antiquity. I'm afraid to countless other karate-ka they're mostly about exercise and checking off a requirement to gain a belt. A smaller though fortunate number also know the kata as a vehicle to learn fighting skills.

 

[miguksaram]

Sanchin is translated as Three Battles and people often say it's about unifying the Body, Mind, and Spirit so that they work together rather than as separate and conflicting parts of ourselves. One of the few times my teacher spoke about 'self-improvement' was during a Sanchin lesson. He said Sanchin was about mastering ourselves, to control our bodies, to rid our minds of distractions, to remove self-doubt and fear. He would say ki boils down to breathing and that Goju is Air foremost, followed by Fire. I still wonder what the hell he means by that since it is counter-intuitive to what I think, but maybe I'll get it some day.

I love Sanchin kata. Perhaps it is because it was the first karate kata I ever saw performed, but to me that is the ipidomy of what a karate kata is.

 

[dancingalone]

I love Sanchin kata. Perhaps it is because it was the first karate kata I ever saw performed, but to me that is the ipidomy of what a karate kata is.

I horrified my wife the first time she saw me practicing Sanchin. In those days, I ran the kata much harder than I do now with clenched muscles and forceful hissing of my breath. As an aikido-ka, she thought it was appalling and she wondered if I was OK.

My TKD students don't get it either. They are simultaneously fascinated and turned off as well.

 

[miguksaram]

I horrified my wife the first time she saw me practicing Sanchin. In those days, I ran the kata much harder than I do now with clenched muscles and forceful hissing of my breath. As an aikido-ka, she thought it was appalling and she wondered if I was OK.

My TKD students don't get it either. They are simultaneously fascinated and turned off as well.

Right. After a long class of kata training, Sensei makes us finish the evening by running this kata hard, three times. During our Shorei black belt test it is the last form you run after all your other Shorei kata (this includes running them with bunkai) and weapons kata, and, if you have a black belt in another system, you have to run those (I had to run my Taeguk poomsae and Kumdo poomsae, I'm glad he forgot about my bb in TSD or I would have been dead since I do not remember any of them). After all that....you get to run Sanchin.

 

[puunui]

We don't have recorded crime statistics for Okinawa during the historical period in which karate was developed, first of the Shuri lineage and then the Naha style.

We might. I called the Okinawan Cultural Center here and spoke to a lady who said she will look into it. We have a large Okinawan population here, with a cultural center, stores and also at least one restaurant. Okinawan food is very different from Japanese food, although there are some similarities. Rice for example, but even with that I think the preferred and more starch is Okinawan sweet potato. Okianwans also feature bittermelon, which I tend to associate more with filipino food more than japanese.

Anyway, the lady at the Okinawan Center said that in her opinion, Okinawa's people are very mild, and violent crime wasn't a major concern of the people. We spoke about how fifty years ago and even in certain neighborhoods today, no one locks their doors, even when they leave and no one is home or at night. She said that the only concern would be from outsiders like US military on Okinawa today. I am sure there were some ill tempered people from Okinawa, especially when drinking is involved. Also, those who traveled outside of Okinawa 100 years ago may have experience discrimination such that they would need to learn self protection methods. But it seems like over kill to me to engage in all this hard core training, including but not limited to makiwara training, just so you can defend yourself from a drunk neighbor or some rascal kids.

I can also gauge to a degree through my students. Some of them have been in violent encounters and they have acquitted themselves well using what I taught them. I don't pretend to be a reality-based SD instructor. I'm a karate/TKD guy. I teach karate and TKD, yet my students have been able to protect themselves and others using the exact stuff practiced in my dojo. To me, that's good evidence that system I pass down was designed for fighting in the first place.

I think your experiences or the experiences of your students go mainly to the idea that it really is not that difficult to defend one self in an encounter, and because of that, it cannot serve as the life long focus for martial arts training. There has to be more than just that low level goal driving you. Take yourself. Is your main motivation for studying the martial arts to development deadly self defense skills for yourself and your students above all else, that their lives and your life as well as the life of your family and their family utterly depend upon what you teach them? Or are people there primarily for other reasons?

I think if everyone were honest they would say that self defense was not the main focus of their training, although perhaps in the very beginning, it was.

KSD can speak for himself, but I gathered he's been very much influenced by Iain Abernethy or at least Abernethy's videos and books. Mr. Abernethy is a Wado stylist and seems to use the Pinan kata extensively as part of his material.

That opens up a whole different can of worms, learning secret hidden applications from forms that one does not practice.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I horrified my wife the first time she saw me practicing Sanchin. In those days, I ran the kata much harder than I do now with clenched muscles and forceful hissing of my breath. As an aikido-ka, she thought it was appalling and she wondered if I was OK.

My TKD students don't get it either. They are simultaneously fascinated and turned off as well.

I've experienced this myself with the Uechi version. Particularly when you have four BB's systematically striking/kicking you while you perform the kata. I don't know if Goju practitioner's do this as well? I think I posted a couple of links to Sanchin in the karate section, though in each of those their is only one instructor testing the student. It is just part of that hard body conditioning many styles practice.

It can give those that aren't familiar with it a 'good gravy' moment

Btw, in addition to discussing Pyung Ahn Chodan applications, really this thread could be for any form that someone would like to share their thoughts on in regards to applications.