Taegue Il Jang application

[seasoned]

First off, and I add this in because some are there, and all will be there some day. I am 69 years old, and have trained consistently for 45years. To do what I did and could do 40 years ago, was fine and dandy, then. But, I needed an art of self defense that could grow with me while I grew older. Instead of looking else where for some of the softer arts, I found to my surprise, that right there in front of me, within my art and it's kata, was what I was looking for, but did not see it as a young man.
My Sensei always said that kata held the key, and there was always a saying that went something like this, "martial arts is for everybody". Well when I was young I didn't need self defense as much as I would need it now, are you with me?

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you are studying an art, and enjoy it, and it is an old traditional art, there are provisions within the art to accommodate your elder years. And for this reason you need to look past the young persons art you are studying, and within that art and those techniques, you will find a complete other art. Oh, the movements will be the same, as you did all your training life, but you are now redirecting, shifting off center, using power from body mechanics instead of muscle.

When we were young we could spar for hours, but in our 70s and 80s, what do we do, hang it up, I think not.

If you are in an art worth it's salt, it is for young and old. But the techniques are done a little bit different as we older martial artist apply them. Nothing changes, only evolves. This, is what makes it, and we call it, an ART.

I don't generally find myself straying away from the karate threads, and may have some reservations in the future. I do tend to stay open minded and learning all the time. I did learn and enjoyed the inter actions here, but had an uneasy feeling, and didn't see many of these here. I would say, we could all stand to chill out a bit, and above all stay open minded and enjoy the learning experience you are getting here.

I was trying to get some insight into Taegue Il Jang application, by giving the thread some insight into my back ground, to see if there was any common ground to dialog on. I truly did not come here to be miss understood, but to merely share in the spirit of the arts.

I feel there is a connection between arts, if not at the technical level, then at lease at the development level of health and strength. You mentioned "twisting motions" of which are also in my kata based art, and are there to directly involve tendon and ligament development which in turn adds more power from within our bodies.

I would agree that each and every move within kata is not geared toward self defense, but each and every move serves a very important function. The practice of martial arts produces a power that is unique to specific techniques within any given art.
Could this be what instructors at the KuKKiwon are eluding to?

My intent is to dialog, and share, not to win a war on words. Thanks in advance.

In the above I was being agreeable, but at the same time inquisitive pertaining to the comment about "twisting motions" as mentioned in a previous post. Also my last sentence mentions this, "My intent is to dialog, and share, not to win a war on words. Thanks in advance".

While I agree with a lot of what you say in general, the art being a young or old person's art is completely unrelated. You are talking about a difference in teaching methodology, not in what the art itself has to offer. I don't know how many times we have to say it, but in KKW taekwondo, the sort of techniques that people are trying to extrapolate from pumse are taught in partnered drills (one step sparring) that are structured so as to make sense and build rather than being hidden movements in pumse.

Since the pumse were not designed to layer those teachings in the same way that Goju kata are, they aren't used in that fashion.

As for lack of posting over the weekend, I cannot speak for others, but I really don't have anything more to add to the topic. The three paragraphs of KKW bashing at the beginning kind of soured the tone of the thread anyway by guaranteeing that at least some of those who post in this section will be immediately put on the defensive.

Not to mention that the OP has gone down this route with this topic on this form more than once and the nature of responses are pretty much the same.


This isn't an issue of open mindedness, Seasoned. You are in the section of an art that you don't practice trying to tell us how it is. The OP and some of the respondents don't even practice the form that is being debated or the form set that it is from, but are trying to "teach" those who do practice it how it should be done and taught. That reflect being close minded, as you are unwilling to look at the art from the perspective of those who practice it and those who create it, but expect those who practice it to be open to the perspective of outsiders.

Do you not see the problem there and why people might take exception to it?

Why, if you are an Okinawan karateka do you stay away from karate threads may I ask?

Above, you are reading me wrong, and make it very clear that you feel that I am trespassing, so to speak, on issues I know nothing about. This was not my intent, and I really don't want to get invalved in the infighting I perceive that is taking place.

Your words Daniel, "Why, if you are an Okinawan karateka do you stay away from karate threads may I ask"?

My words, "I don't generally find myself straying away from the karate threads, and may have some reservations in the future".

The meaning of my words, "and may have some reservations in the future".

Answer, "of straying away from the, karate threads". I will stay there where I have done well for 5 years, with ANY verbal conflict.

 

[puunui]

I've experienced this myself with the Uechi version. Particularly when you have four BB's systematically striking/kicking you while you perform the kata. I don't know if Goju practitioner's do this as well?

Kukki taekwondoin do that too. We call them hogu drills. Have you ever done any?

 

[seasoned]

I was out all weekend practicing my low block death touch from Taeguk Il-jang. I have it down to where I can strike you in the calf causing at least on of your testicles to explode. Still working on the other.

Case in point. This is the dialog I can do without.

 

[puunui]

Above, you are reading me wrong, and make it very clear that you feel that I am trespassing, so to speak, on issues I know nothing about. This was not my intent, and I really don't want to get invalved in the infighting I perceive that is taking place.

There is no infighting, just one non kukki taekwondo outsider wanting to discuss applications from a kukkiwon form he never learned.

 

[andyjeffries]

Can we all please write it as Taegeuk not Taegue. If we're going to be discussing a specific pattern we should all at least spell it correctly.

Mispronunciation is one of my pet peeves and this is number two behind people pronouncing our art as Thai-kwondo rather than t'eh kwondo (or tay kwondo if they must).

 

[dancingalone]

I've experienced this myself with the Uechi version. Particularly when you have four BB's systematically striking/kicking you while you perform the kata. I don't know if Goju practitioner's do this as well? I think I posted a couple of links to Sanchin in the karate section, though in each of those their is only one instructor testing the student. It is just part of that hard body conditioning many styles practice.

It can give those that aren't familiar with it a 'good gravy' moment

Goju does indeed have shime though in my experience it should be more about checking correct posture and muscular tension than outright beating up the student. I have heard of some dojo in the sixties and seventies on the east coast overdoing shime as more of a hazing ritual or to test conditioning.

If you're an Uechi man, let me say I'm very much impressed with Shinjo Sensei and the entire Shinjo clan in general. I've seen him break baseball bats with his forearm, and he is not exactly large.

 

[puunui]

Can we all please write it as Taegeuk not Taegue.

When I think of "taegu" I think of either the city in South Korea, or a type of pan chun (korean side dish) that is served with meals. I don't really think about poomsae when I hear or see that word.

 

[puunui]

Maybe it is just a matter of perspective. I've always welcomed the relationship between karate and TKD

Too much of that is not good though, because you begin to start thinking gojuryu thoughts in a taekwondo context. I took karate before taekwondo as well, and it was a constant struggle to not think karate when doing taekwondo. Finally I made a decision to let go of my karate mindset, so that I could progress in taekwondo. I did keep one thing from karate, which is the analytical eye and appreciation for detail that sometimes korean martial arts lack.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Case in point. This is the dialog I can do without.

Unfortunately you will come accross that sort of dialogue here in the tkd section. Many here feel "everyone is out to get them", and that there is an "alterior motive" behind each thread. The paranoia runs deep here my friend

 

[Jaeimseu]

Maybe not today, but can you say for sure that isn't how people fought way back when? Like Revolutionary War tactics, no one would fight like that today, stand in a line, powder up and load their musket and then fire in unison against another group that was doing the exact same thing. But that is what they did back then.

This reminds me of what I said before about watching a Tang Soo Do class spar. They sparred exactly like they did forms, with complete hip chambered punches and "traditional" blocking motions. They called themselves traditional. I think "traditional," like many other words, means different things to different people, but I also remember thinking to myself, "If that's traditional, I'm glad I'm not." That is one of the beautiful things about Kukki Taekwondo: it's not static. The "traditional" elements are held onto through poomse, but sparring techniques and strategies are in constant evolution.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Can we all please write it as Taegeuk not Taegue. If we're going to be discussing a specific pattern we should all at least spell it correctly.

Mispronunciation is one of my pet peeves and this is number two behind people pronouncing our art as Thai-kwondo rather than t'eh kwondo (or tay kwondo if they must).

I agree. Unfortunately, it was pretty widespread when I was in the states. Even with the correct English spelling, people will more often than not mispronounce the words. People tend to pronounce English letters with English sounds, which leads to incorrect pronunciation. When things are spelled wrong it just makes it that much more difficult to get it right.

 

[puunui]

I agree. Unfortunately, it was pretty widespread when I was in the states. Even with the correct English spelling, people will more often than not mispronounce the words. People tend to pronounce English letters with English sounds, which leads to incorrect pronunciation. When things are spelled wrong it just makes it that much more difficult to get it right.

And the thing about that is, if someone cannot or will not take the time to learn the proper pronunciation and spelling, then what is the probability that they are doing the movements correctly? Spelling and pronunciation are infinitely easier than doing physical moves, so there is a block there, then you know there are other more major blocks all over the place. We tend to reveal ourselves in small almost unnoticeable ways....

 

[ralphmcpherson]

And the thing about that is, if someone cannot or will not take the time to learn the proper pronunciation and spelling, then what is the probability that they are doing the movements correctly? Spelling and pronunciation are infinitely easier than doing physical moves, so there is a block there, then you know there are other more major blocks all over the place. We tend to reveal ourselves in small almost unnoticeable ways....

I agree wholeheartedly that people should pronounce these terms correctly, but suggesting that the way someone pronounces the moves, forms etc somehow correlates to their level of skill is drawing a very long bow. Theres a guy I train with who Ive mentioned here many times, who is easily the best martial artist Ive seen in the flesh, who has flawless technique and is just inspirational to watch, but his pronunciation of all things tkd leaves a lot to be desired. Listening to the way he pronounces the word "palgwe" is just hillarious and drives my instructor (who speaks fluent korean and lived for years in korea) crazy.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I agree wholeheartedly that people should pronounce these terms correctly, but suggesting that the way someone pronounces the moves, forms etc somehow correlates to their level of skill is drawing a very long bow. Theres a guy I train with who Ive mentioned here many times, who is easily the best martial artist Ive seen in the flesh, who has flawless technique and is just inspirational to watch, but his pronunciation of all things tkd leaves a lot to be desired. Listening to the way he pronounces the word "palgwe" is just hillarious and drives my instructor (who speaks fluent korean and lived for years in korea) crazy.

I don't know that I would draw a correlation to a person's skill, but perhaps to their attention to detail? If a person is unwillingly to correct simple things like spelling, there's a good chance they may not pay attention to other details.

On a side note, in my experience 99% of westerners pronounce Korean words incorrectly. But many people make no effort to do so (pronounce things correctly). If they are an instructor, then they create a new generation of students who will pronounce things wrong, but be convinced they are correct, because, "my instructor did it this way."

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't know that I would draw a correlation to a person's skill, but perhaps to their attention to detail? If a person is unwillingly to correct simple things like spelling, there's a good chance they may not pay attention to other details.

On a side note, in my experience 99% of westerners pronounce Korean words incorrectly. But many people make no effort to do so (pronounce things correctly). If they are an instructor, then they create a new generation of students who will pronounce things wrong, but be convinced they are correct, because, "my instructor did it this way."

I absolutely agree with this. I think the mark of a good instructor is attention to detail and a willingness to strive for correctness and accuracy.

I'm absolutely positive that I mispronounce some Korean words, but when I hear the word pronounced correctly (Kukkiwon or WTF DVDs, Korean instructors, my Grandmaster, etc) then I try my best to replicate that pronunciation. The same way I do with my movements, I'm sure I make lots of mistakes, but every time I see a difference between Kukkiwon standards and what I'm doing, I repeat to try and nail it (and ensure to pass the corrected version on to my students).

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Unfortunately you will come accross that sort of dialogue here in the tkd section. Many here feel "everyone is out to get them", and that there is an "alterior motive" behind each thread. The paranoia runs deep here my friend

I see this as more of an 'us vs. them' mentality unfortunately. You can use this thread as a good example for this as there are about four members who have been consistent in their non-participation of the topic itself, yet you'll see they have tried to dominate the thread to keep it as far off topic as possible. You see a trend developing where if you're not TKD, or more specifically 'their' brand of TKD...well you're not welcome here. This has been developing over a number of threads they don't like for quite a while. And of course, the little shots here and there mixed with some, shall we less than truthful comments. For example, I misspelled Taegeuk in the title. Now the fact that I've spelled it correctly in other threads is overlooked as this is a great opportunity to put in a dozen or so posts about it to take the thread off-track. Very friendly indeed.

I've seen several declare that I don't know this or that form. Yet they've never met me. They've never seen me train. They've never asked if I know this or that form. They simply doesn't know, yet they feels fit to state it as though it is a fact. It is simply a bait to get me to respond so they can further the rabbit trail. It is difficult to engage in conversation with those who aren't exactly concerned with truthfulness. Again, very friendly indeed.

I believe their ultimate goal, beyond avoiding actual on-topic participation, is to have the thread closed. I suppose they would see this as some sort of perverse victory. This is why I have simply chosen to no longer engage them directly in conversation. It is a waste of time and counter-productive. Now they'll come back and pick this post apart and put a spin on it as they can get several more derail posts in to bogg down the thread. So be it. Most here know their M.O or are discovering it. As for me, I'm enjoying the thread and skipping over the few that refuse to participate makes it easy.

My advice, ignore them.

My words, "I don't generally find myself straying away from the karate threads, and may have some reservations in the future".

Don't let them chase you out sir, I have enjoyed talking with you and I've appreciated your input. As I mentioned, just ignore them.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Goju does indeed have shime though in my experience it should be more about checking correct posture and muscular tension than outright beating up the student. I have heard of some dojo in the sixties and seventies on the east coast overdoing shime as more of a hazing ritual or to test conditioning.

This kind of conditioning can definately be overdone. An instructor has to know what he/she is doing and have the best interest of the student in mind. When done correctly, it produces a very strong individual indeed. I've not seen this sort of toughness outside of the Ryus that incorporate this type of training.

If you're an Uechi man, let me say I'm very much impressed with Shinjo Sensei and the entire Shinjo clan in general. I've seen him break baseball bats with his forearm, and he is not exactly large.

Yes, very impressive! He and others have had 2x4's broken over their outstretched forearms, shins and abdomens as well. In addition to hard body drills, we use to kick tires, use bowling pins, closet dowels, windlass etc for conditioning. It has to be done right though.

 

[d1jinx]

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, very impressive! He and others have had 2x4's broken over their outstretched forearms, shins and abdomens as well. In addition to hard body drills, we use to kick tires, use bowling pins, closet dowels, windlass etc for conditioning. It has to be done right though.

He has some students in the US and visits every third year or so. I know a couple of them and they're excellent karate-ka themselves.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Above, you are reading me wrong, and make it very clear that you feel that I am trespassing, so to speak, on issues I know nothing about. This was not my intent, and I really don't want to get invalved in the infighting I perceive that is taking place.

Not trespassing; you seemed to make characterizations about the art that may or may not be correct, but that a non practitioner would have no means of knowing. If I am reading you wrong, which is certainly possible, then my apologies.

Unfortunately, there is a general pattern of non KKW and non taekwondoin (the OP, for example) who spend the bulk of their time here posting about KKW taekwondo, frequently in fashion of putting it down. In and of itself, it wouldn't be a problem, except that their put downs are generally not grounded in fact and they are unwilling to listen when told otherwise. At the same time, they get upset of their appraisals are not given weight.

Your words Daniel, "Why, if you are an Okinawan karateka do you stay away from karate threads may I ask"?

My words, "I don't generally find myself straying away from the karate threads, and may have some reservations in the future".

The meaning of my words, "and may have some reservations in the future".

Answer, "of straying away from the, karate threads". I will stay there where I have done well for 5 years, with ANY verbal conflict.

Certainly did read you wrong here. Apologies.