Tae Kwon Do Without the Crazy Kicking

[Steven Craig]

So lets examine the multitude of fancy/athletic kicks that are prevalent in TKD. Jump kicks, which include the basic kicks offered. We have jump side, roundhouse, front snap, front push, jump turning back kick, the pinwheel kicks (360/540 roundhose / crescent / hook kick). The practical value of any of these kicks, do to the athletic demands make them impractical to the majority and thus useless.

Perhaps you are gifted and very athletic and you can pull the majority of these kicks off in the dojang. I'd wager though, that in the street in a real altercation, attempting any of the discussed kicks other than the 3 base line kicks, wouldn't even enter your mind.

I don’t know about the man this was in response to, but I am a lot more confident in myself if I ended up in a situation since I started TKD. I would not do a side kick to the head, my body structure makes that difficult when I am warmed up, but I could take out a knee.
A jumping front kick could knock someone back in time to give me time to get out of a situation, and I have seen a turning back kick drop an aggressor in an altercation and I would not want to be on the receiving end of a jump turn kick.
I can see your point on the 540 kick, but I would love to see a club where these is a massive part of the curriculum. It is not a part of ours, although I have seen it in competition for wood breaking...once over the years I have been going.
There are some kicks I would not consider practical for me to use if I was in a situation where I needed to defend myself, but that does not mean others would not be able to use them effectively.
As for other than the 3 base line kicks being the only ones to enter your mind, are they the only kicks you use when you train? I would wager that I would use sparing techniques I use in class in a fight-the ones I know work best for me from sparing- boxing, to turn kicks, to jump kicks to the three base line kicks and whatever else was automatic due to the repetitive use of it in training.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Its very hard to define what is meant by 'effective' in terms of kicks because there could always be a situation where something IS effective. Its like a tradesman may have a tool in his ute that he only requires once or twice a year but when he needs it it comes in real handy. Does the fact the tool rarely gets used make it ineffective? The same thing with kicks, its hard to write a whole technique of as "ineffective", because they were all designed with a use in mind and when the time is right it could be effective. Except, of course, for kicks like the 540, the only time that would be effective is in a martial arts movie.

 

[Manny]

for me the real kicks are: knee kick,front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick and back kick. All this kicks from ground to stomach level, above this level I have my hands,elbows,fingers,theet,head,etc.

One can't be wrong using combos of the kicks above related with hand techs.

There are a lot of gifted persons around who can perform outstanding hook kicks doing a well k.o. in the dojang and tournaments BUT, as long as I've been seein in actual tournaments using an efective hook kick to finish an oponent is something around 0.05% of the times and what do you think of it? in a tournament there are rules,so if your hook kick does not land correctly with timing speed and power what hapened most of the times? the kicker falls (bad inside in a real street figh) or a clinch till judge yells kalyo. What are you thinking? IF in a tournament a good kicker not always uses with sucess this spining hook kick would he used in the streets?

The basic regular kicks are the ones that really matters, don't matter you are an old guy or a 15 years old boy.

A kick is a strong tech but it's inestable and can be knocked off or just grabed.

Even in controled scenarios with a set of rules like in tournaments the most comon kicks used it's the roundhouse (TKD) to the hogu and in other open karate torunaments is the side kick and front kick, any other kick is a luxurius but wonderful to get if it's possible and then get more than a point or even in the best part a well k.o.

My two mexican cents.

manny

 

[Gemini]

Its very hard to define what is meant by 'effective' in terms of kicks because there could always be a situation where something IS effective. Its like a tradesman may have a tool in his ute that he only requires once or twice a year but when he needs it it comes in real handy. Does the fact the tool rarely gets used make it ineffective? The same thing with kicks, its hard to write a whole technique of as "ineffective", because they were all designed with a use in mind and when the time is right it could be effective.

This is exactly why I'm hesitant to ever dismiss anything. While many of the kicks you mentioned may not hold a main place in one's arsenal, they play a role and are incorporated in our training for a reason. Learning these kicks even if you never intend to use them for self defense, offer a great role in flexibility, strength and conditioning. If you never intend to use one of these in a self defense scenario, that's fine, but it's still to your advantage to develop the physical attributes required to do so.

The day wil come when a roundhouse or front snap is the only kick I have left in the bag, but that day will come later rather than sooner because I push myself with these kicks some would deem useless.

 

[dancingalone]

Learning these kicks even if you never intend to use them for self defense, offer a great role in flexibility, strength and conditioning. If you never intend to use one of these in a self defense scenario, that's fine, but it's still to your advantage to develop the physical attributes required to do so.

I think there was a similar discussion last week on MT. My opinion on this is the same it was then: if we want to become proficient at the standard side kick, then by all means practice the standard side kick. Training the jump spinning side kick to improve the standard side kick seems awfully indirect to me me, even if it is a more physically demanding technique. To my way of thinking, there is a 100% improvement conversion with the first training method, while there will inevitably be lost of efficiency through drift and diversion with the second.

 

[Gemini]

To my way of thinking, there is a 100% improvement conversion with the first training method, while there will inevitably be lost of efficiency through drift and diversion with the second.

I agree with your statement as a whole if you look at it from a point of practicality, but I don't think it adresses the larger issue, which deals with capability. That position is limited because yes, loss of efficiency is inevitable. The farther you extend your capablities, the longer they're going to effectively serve you. My postion is, all things being equal, if you spend the same amount of time doing only low kicks (because that's all you think you'll ever need) as I do doing low/med/high kicks, I'm going to be an effective kicker long after you're walking with a cane because I extended my limitations farther when I had the chance.

I'm 52 years old and will be the first to tell you I can't do some of the things I could do at 40. But I'll also tell you that because I did those things at 40 is the very reason you won't find many people my age doing the things I can still do. I don't (or ever have) anticipate I'll ever throw a high kick in an altercation, but it doesn't stop me from practicing them because I know I'll be throwing effective kicks (at any height) longer than I otherwise would have if I didn't continuously push against limitations, physical or self imposed.

 

[Hollywood1340]

If I can kick you in the head quickly, I can kick you in the knees faster. If I can do a jump spinning flying kick with speed an accuracy and make it work, what can I do with a simple kick? Kicks are drills. Drills build skills. To many people look at the kick as opposed to what it's teaching. And in the end it's the teacher and the training, no matter what kicks you're doing.

 

[dancingalone]

I agree with your statement as a whole if you look at it from a point of practicality, but I don't think it adresses the larger issue, which deals with capability. That position is limited because yes, loss of efficiency is inevitable. The farther you extend your capablities, the longer they're going to effectively serve you. My postion is, all things being equal, if you spend the same amount of time doing only low kicks (because that's all you think you'll ever need) as I do doing low/med/high kicks, I'm going to be an effective kicker long after you're walking with a cane because I extended my limitations farther when I had the chance.

But now you're actually talking about longevity and maintaining good health which is something else. I don't think practicing high or jumping kicks help you do that. On the contrary, they build up a toll over time on your knees and your back/spine. And neither of those things 'regenerate' like skin or muscle will.

One can be limber and flexible without practicing high kicks. I can still do the splits at my age because I have worked to stay limber. But I do not practice the jumping or high section kicks regularly (okay I do crank the high roundhouse kick on a heavy bag occasionally because it is fun). I have a high level of confidence that I can kick well to the waist level and below with excellent power and precision because that IS what I practice.

 

[Cirdan]

If I can kick you in the head quickly, I can kick you in the knees faster. If I can do a jump spinning flying kick with speed an accuracy and make it work, what can I do with a simple kick?

I`ll start practicing double somersault punches to the toes immediately.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If I can kick you in the head quickly, I can kick you in the knees faster. If I can do a jump spinning flying kick with speed an accuracy and make it work, what can I do with a simple kick? Kicks are drills. Drills build skills. To many people look at the kick as opposed to what it's teaching. And in the end it's the teacher and the training, no matter what kicks you're doing.

I couldnt agree more. Its like training kicking with leg weights on, if you can get the kicks looking good with leg weights then just imagine the kicks without them. I regularly practice roundhouse at head height although I have no intentions of ever kicking someone in the head with that kick in a real altercation but the fact I practice kicking to the head level means kicking low is even easier and faster. I like to train things (not just in martial arts) to a level higher than actually needed so when the time comes to use it Im more than prepared. I also believe that the harder, more fancy kicks are drills and are teaching things that go way beyond the actual kick itself. I cant imagine meeting a tkdist who can do great 540 kicks but struggles with a roundhouse.

 

[Gemini]

But now you're actually talking about longevity and maintaining good health which is something else. I don't think practicing high or jumping kicks help you do that. On the contrary, they build up a toll over time on your knees and your back/spine. And neither of those things 'regenerate' like skin or muscle will.

Really? That's true to some extent, but we have a lot to say when that time will be. The line between conditioning and overconditioning is one we all wrestle with at any age. Regardless, my references to the kicking was directed towards the younger years allowing me to be where I am now, not so much what I do now as the focal point.

One can be limber and flexible without practicing high kicks. I can still do the splits at my age because I have worked to stay limber.

Yes, but on the flip side, one cannot effectivly execute kigh kicks with just being limber and flexible. It takes actual practice.

But I do not practice the jumping or high section kicks regularly (okay I do crank the high roundhouse kick on a heavy bag occasionally because it is fun)

Me either. I can't incorporate a heavy diet of those types of kicks anymore for the very reasons you mentioned, but can still do enough of them to stay proficient. They are fun and it's apparent in your writing that you get just as much satisfaction from that ability as I do.

I have a high level of confidence that I can kick well to the waist level and below with excellent power and precision because that IS what I practice.

I have no doubt, and a few years from now, you'll be saying that you can kick to the ankles with excellent power and precision because that IS what you practice.

I'll race you to the wheelchair.

 

[dancingalone]

Really? That's true to some extent, but we have a lot to say when that time will be. The line between conditioning and overconditioning is one we all wrestle with at any age. Regardless, my references to the kicking was directed towards the younger years allowing me to be where I am now, not so much what I do now as the focal point.

Yes, the cumulative harmful effects of high kicks have been discussed here before. But that aside, I'd rather save the conditioning training for actual conditional training rather than trying to juxtapose it with kicking training. Why? Well, we fight like we train. If we groove in high kicks into our muscle memory, it's not too hard a jump to think that it might become a favored part of our tool chest that comes out under reactionary pressure.

Yes, but on the flip side, one cannot effectivly execute kigh kicks with just being limber and flexible. It takes actual practice.

I agree with that 100%. But how many times is it said here that kicking high helps you kick low? I think targets like the knees and the groin are different from the face or the temple. If we want to kick the knee, surely it's not unreasonable to think that we should therefore practice for kicking the knee.

Me either. I can't incorporate a heavy diet of those types of kicks anymore for the very reasons you mentioned, but can still do enough of them to stay proficient. They are fun and it's apparent in your writing that you get just as much satisfaction from that ability as I do.

Oh, I totally understand why people LIKE to practice high kicks or jumping kicks. I'm just trying to 'keep things real' though. From my perspective, it's really not logical to justify practicing these kicks by saying there is a high degree of carry through on the more basic and arguably practical kicks.

I have no doubt, and a few years from now, you'll be saying that you can kick to the ankles with excellent power and precision because that IS what you practice.

I'll race you to the wheelchair.

Hopefully, I can continue to practice kicking waist level even as I enter my sixties and seventies. That's my goal anyway.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If I can kick you in the head quickly, I can kick you in the knees faster.

If rapid low kicks are what you are looking to develop, you are better served to practice them. The dynamic of kicking to the head is different enough that speed in one does not automatically make one faster in the other. If you practice a lot of high kicks, all of your kicks will be faster because you're kicking, not because you're kicking high.

Now, if I practice high kicks regularly (and I do), the chances of pulling something when executing a low to mid level kick cold is much lower, and last I checked, you don't get to warm up when you need to defend yourself, thus the practice of high kicks are still beneficial.

If I can do a jump spinning flying kick with speed an accuracy and make it work, what can I do with a simple kick?

Practicing simple kicks a lot and regular sparring using simple kicks is more likely to develop accuracy in simple kicks. The dynamic of a jump/spinning/flying kick really is not going to translate to accuracy or better form with a front kick or a turning kick.

The benefits of a jump/spinning/flying kick do cross over to other areas, however, as you point out below:

Kicks are drills. Drills build skills. To many people look at the kick as opposed to what it's teaching. And in the end it's the teacher and the training, no matter what kicks you're doing.

Now this I will agree with you on 100%!

The dynamic of doing jump/spin kicks aided me greatly in the more advanced kumdo forms that I train in, which involve jumping/spinning cuts. The dynamic of the jump/spin has relevence outside of kicking as it involves the use of core muscles and momentum to generate power. There are also applications for low and mid level kicks that the jump kick techniques apply to, primarily relating to power generation. Not to mention that the benefits to building your core muscles do translate to simple kicks, which also rely on core muscles.

Ballance is also developed in the practice of spin kicks and jump kicks.

In terms of practical use, my opinion of high and flashy kicks mostly mirror those of Dancing, though I still train my students in a 50/50 ratio of kicks and hand techniques. Low and mid level kicks can be highly effective in self defense due to the power of the legs, so I condider kicking drills to be important.

While I may not do as much work on flashy kicks, the meat and potatoes kicks are practiced and dnlled a lot. 10% of class time spent on a vital part of one's arsenal is not enough. I split the class into roughly equal parts falls/rolls, hand techs, kicks, and hoshinsul; twenty percent each. Only comes out to eighty; the remaining twenty percent is spent on whatever I wish to emphasize in a particular class. Some classes, that goes to hand techs, some to kicks, some to hoshinsul, some to rolls & falls, sometimes step sparring, sometimes free sparring. This does not include the time for warm ups.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

It struck me as I was finalizing our blue belt curriculum the other evening that I have not included much kicking at all. All the way from white to blue belt, the most advanced technique is a spinning back kick. I suppose I might add a spinning hook kick by the time we get to red belt, but I am not really interested in doing much more than that. And I am fine with it. We make up the difference with more close range material.

I know some threads crop up from time to time about what is tae kwon do without all the kicking. Well, here's my expression of it: A relatively mere 10% of our time in class is spent on kicking, and I fully expect our sparring to follow suit when our students become experienced and skilled enough to start sparring drills.

Sounds to me like you've identified a vision of what you feel TKD ought to be for you, and you are working on a method for passing that on to your students. I personally, as a non-TKD guy, feel you are on a good path.

I've read thru this thread and see the variety of positions put forth. They all have validity in their own way, and according to the vision of TKD held by those people. But, you are not those people. You are you, and you have your own vision.

I see all too often people are reluctant or intimidated or frightened of the prospect of making serious changes in how they practice and teach their art. It's easy to feel like you are betraying your art, or betraying your teachers, or making the art into something else that it is not. I understand the hesitations built around those feelings. I've wrestled with this myself in various aspect of my own training.

However, I do believe that there is nothing wrong with making the decision to change things, if you are truly convinced that doing so will create a better method that supports and builds upon what your vision is. If you have a purpose with it, and you feel confident that this is a more appropriate path for you, then do it.

Not all students will share your vision. Some will want something else, and they will go to other teachers. But there will be students who share your vision, who realize that what you teach is in line with what they need and desire in training. They will find you and stick with you. And yes, it is still TKD, tho it may not be Olympic TKD, or sports-oriented TKD.

Personally, from reading thru this thread and your responses to what others have written, I think you are finding a good path. I, and probably others, find it refreshing.

good luck to you.