Tae-Kwon-Do versus Knife

[Mannie]

Hi everyone,
Just so that you understand the reason for this thread.
I am an Edge Weapon Instructor that is accredited in three Knife Systems.
I have put an Edge Weapon Awareness & Defense training system that does not teach you a new system, but rather works with individual martial arts in either creating a practical realistic syllabus that complements and adds to what that system already does, or else simply to revamp an existing program.
I have been working with some senior TaeKwonDo instructors over the past few months, and have put in place with their assistance a curriculum that uses existing TaeKwonDo techniques and application in dealing against edge weapons in a very practical and effective manner taking into account all the four main areas.
1. Threating Knife - Very Long Range
2. Ready to Act Knife - Meddium Range
3. Kill Knife - In Your Face Range
4. Demanding Knife - You Have Something they want

These applications will be published in the Australasian TaeKwonDo magazine in four segments.

 

[Digger70chall]

sounds like an interesting read. I don't know how i could get ahold of austrailian TKD magazine though. Will there be a way to make them available in the states?

 

[FearlessFreep]

Yeah, would love to read that!

 

[Gemini]

These applications will be published in the Australasian TaeKwonDo magazine in four segments.

I would also love to have a gander at that. When it's published, please let us know how we can access it.

Thanks

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that the most effective techniques in TKD against the knife are going to be the low side kicks, foot stomps, and kneeing. If one can keep the knife off of their vitals long enough to disable their opponents ability to move, disengaging and running away gets easier. Of course, if one can run away to begin with, they've just defended themselves.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Questions for you.

1: If the person is that close, how are you going to be able to kick them?

if the knife is so very close, then it's no longer TKD range of fighting. Personally I will use Jujutsu joint lock.

But off course, like my friend Arnisador said, if the person attacking me with knife is a skilled knifefighter, then my chances are slim, so I better run!

2: With the person being that close and not assuming that they're going to stand there while you execute your defense, don't you think that they're going to see you move and thrust into your stomach?

Mike

That's why we put our hands up. It is to give our attacker a false sense of security, "knowing" that we are "surrendering" to his threat.

On the other hand, if the attacker is a seasoned thug, then he won't fall for it so easily. So, just give him the money and run with our tails between our legs

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

If the person moves the knife just a little, the first kick misses and he can counterattack. I think this is a very optimistic technique!

pssttt... arnisador.. this was a technique taught to "boost the spirit and confidence of junior high school students training in Taekwondo"

 

[MJS]

if the knife is so very close, then it's no longer TKD range of fighting. Personally I will use Jujutsu joint lock.


But off course, like my friend Arnisador said, if the person attacking me with knife is a skilled knifefighter, then my chances are slim, so I better run!

I agree, being in that close, getting control is the way to go.

That's why we put our hands up. It is to give our attacker a false sense of security, "knowing" that we are "surrendering" to his threat.

On the other hand, if the attacker is a seasoned thug, then he won't fall for it so easily. So, just give him the money and run with our tails between our legs

Still not sure I'd want to attempt a kick to start off with, but I do agree with putting the hands up, taking a quick glance over the shoulder to see what hand the knife is in, if its an attack from behind, as we can begin our defense while the hands are in motion.

Mike

 

[Mannie]

From experience, do attempt to grapple with a knife attacker.
You stun & Run - Run and scan for weapons to also stun.
Never, ever choose skin, blood and bone to deal against sharp steel.
- Spin in their face & run
- Yell & Run
- Look for surrogates weapons
- look for environmental weapons
If it is already in your face - you dont defend - you survive, and the techniques for survival cannot be practiced as drills but only through instinct, commited training.

 

[Last Fearner]

Here is my perspective on Knife defense with Taekwondo skills. This is not to put mine above anyone elses - - it's just a different point of view. Sorry if it is too long, but it is the only way I can properly cover such a serious topic.

First, I must comment on what Taekwondo is. I have read alot where people say Taekwondo is this or that, or doesn't contain this or that. I want to point out that there are three main interpretations of Taekwondo.

First, there is the pinning of "Taekwon-do" to the late General Choi Hong Hi for his submitting the name at the session for "renaming" Korean Martial art in 1955. He did a lot to spread his version of Oh Do Kwan ("Gym of my way") doing things his way,through the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF). An admirable life commited to teaching "his way."

Second, there are the watered down versions of schools that primarily focus on sport, or fitness, and remove much of the self defense. Some people say "the majority" of TKD schools, however I wonder if they mean the majority of the 372 schools they have visited in their country, or world wide. How many thousands of Taekwondo schools have they not seen? In the U.S., the "bad" Taekwondo schools were rampant in the '80s and '90s but things are being turned around in my observation.

The third interpretation of Taekwondo is the one that I am involved with. Teaching all of Korea's historical aspects of their native Marital Art under the umbrella title of Taekwondo. This includes Hapkido, Hoshinsul, Yudo, and a variety of other Korean names. Some have chosen to teach these outside of the "Taekwondo" label which is fine, but that does not remove them from the original intent of the Korean Government to unify ALL of their native training under one heading in 1955.

That being said - - Yes, there is most definately knife defense skills in "traditional Taekwondo." I trained against knife attacks as a student from my instructor whose lineage goes back to Korea to infinite generations of Masters. As a Master Instructor myself, I have worked with Grandmasters in recent times who share their knowledge, so it comes from a variety of sources.

As most of you have stated, Tae Kwon Do doesnt have an edge weapon curriculum or if it does its one that the instructor is unsure of its confidence in using it in a self preservation situation.
I find this strange as Tae Kwon Do is a Self-Defense system promoting self-defense but turns a blind eye to one of the most used, feared and on the increase weapons of choice for attacks in past, present and future times.

Do you think Masters of Subak, Taekyon, Hwarang-do, and Hapkido, etc. never trained on how to fight against knives, and never actually fought in real life against armed attackers? Yes they did.

Whether a person is confident in those skills is up to that person and their level of training. Training does help. Proper training improves your chances of survival - which is the objective. In my belief, the knife is not the most used and feared. The gun is far more deadly and used in drive by shootings, gang fights, and armed robberies every day.

Against a knife, there are two main scenarios. If you see the attacker and the weapon, or you don't. If they stick you before you see them, or slash your throat from behind - you lose. Keeping alert, there are some things you can do against a surprise attack, but most of what is being discussed here is face to face.

I won't give away all my tactics here, otherwise the bad guys will learn, and know how to avoid my defenses. I have my own "Golden Rules" about knife defense. There are just three.

1. Don't get cut.
2. Don't do anything foolish.
3. Make sure what you do works, and if not, see rules number 1 and 2.

I have used Taekwondo against weapons in the street. I have removed knives by kicking the weapon out of the hand (it really does work if you train a lot, and know when and how to do it). I have stripped weapons after controlling the arm, and if done correctly, there is no way they can still cut you. Knife defense is a big risk, as others have said. You might get knicked or worse. However, if you have a choice - - run!!!. If not, you must do the best you have trained for.

The suggestion of using markers in training to represent knives is a bit of an indication, but the reality is that one of the first moves will be to seriously injur my attacker. In class, your training helps, but it is playing a game. In real life, your classroom skills have to be applied at the highest level. Train for it, and it will likely work. Crime statistics show that many victims of knife attacks suffer multiple "defensive wounds" around the hands, then forearms, and non-vital body areas before the deadly cuts are inflicted.

If a person knows what to do, they might get cut once or twice, but they should be able to defeat the attacker during those initial strikes and survive. Using a coat or piece of clothing to cover the weapon, a chair, and hadfull of dirt (or pocket change as mentioned) are ways to distract or prevent getting cut. Waiting until the attacker lunges and makes themselves vulnerable , and then countering is sometimes better than going after them.

Finally, I would like to respond to the "jujutsu" comment. There is no such thing as "too close for Taekwondo." This is a misconception by those who don't know what we can do. I can stand within an inch of you, or you can grab me and I can strike with any weapon, including kicks, then I can use the throwing and grappling aspects of Taekwondo. Jujutsu is fine for those who study that, but genuine Taekwondo includes striking, throwing, and holding, and I can strike from any range.

This is my humble opinion from my own experience. Thanks.
Sr. Master Eisenhart

 

[Gemini]

.....Some people say "the majority" of TKD schools, however I wonder if they mean the majority of the 372 schools they have visited in their country, or world wide. How many thousands of Taekwondo schools have they not seen? ......

.....There is no such thing as "too close for Taekwondo." This is a misconception by those who don't know what we can do. I can stand within an inch of you, or you can grab me and I can strike with any weapon, including kicks, then I can use the throwing and grappling aspects of Taekwondo. Jujutsu is fine for those who study that, but genuine Taekwondo includes striking, throwing, and holding, and I can strike from any range.

Excellent post, sir! I quoted the two comments above because of the frequency I hear things such as these, and found them worth repeating.