Tae-Kwon-Do versus Knife

[Kuk Sa Nim]

If you want to know if your knife defense training is any good, (without getting cut that is), practice it with a red marker instead of a knife.

You may be surprised how many places you end up getting knicked.

This is a topic I've been involved in for some time now. Truthfully, in all my years in TKD, the only techniques that I would label "TKD knife defense", were pretty much flashy and impractical. Lots of static blocking, and lots of kicking the knife out of the hand. The good old kick the thrusting knife out of his hand with a crescent kick, followed by a jump around crescent kick to head is a perfect example. I'm sure all TKD (and most HKD) people know this technique. It is still unfortunately being taught quite a bit, and surfaces in lots of KMA demos.

I'm not going to stand here and criticize anyone's techniques nor training. But as was mentioned in sections before me, there are a couple questions you need to ask yourself.

1- Am I willing to trust this technique or training with my life (or that of a loved one)?
2- Am I doing all that I can to survive this VERY dangerous scenario?

The answer to both these should be no. We can never train enough in saving our lives. We must think out of the box and be real honest with ourselves. When it comes to empty hand knife defense, we do not have the luxury of kidding ourselves. The consequences are entirely much too grave.

I recommend we all seriously review our knife defense and "knife work" in general. If it complies with the "5 Golden Rules of Knife Fighting", then we are on the right path. If not, then it's time to make some adjustments.

FYI:

5 Golden Rules of Knife Fighting

1- Stay out of the line of fire. Get an angle on the weapon and the opponent.
2- Control the Weapon. Know where it is at all times.
3- Effective techniques application. Must have a profound impact on the opponent and place you in the least danger as possible.
4- Follow up on effective technique. If needed, regress in the steps to insure safety.
5- Neutralize the threat. Finish the engagement on your terms. The opponent must be disarmed, unconscious, mortally wounded, or all the above, as long as he is no longer a threat.

Keep in mind that a serious knife encounter is very dynamic and dangerous. This is always to be viewed as a life threatening situation. Never underestimate your opponent, and over estimate your preparedness. Anything less and you are asking for major trouble.

Just my 2 cents...

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba

 

[Zepp]

This might belong in a different topic, but I feel like it has to be asked.

Why bother differentiating between a knife defense that comes from TKD, and a knife defense that comes from somewhere else, such as Hapkido? If you're learning it in a Tae Kwon Do class, and your instructor learned it from a Tae Kwon Do instructor, why not just consider it to now be part of Tae Kwon Do?

 

[FearlessFreep]

I sorta have been wondering that myself. The original question asked about 'traditional TKD' so I kept my thoughts to within the normal techniques and the more obvious motions rather then delving into the 'hidden techniques' of forms like grabs and joint locks and takedowns and such. If those with exposure and experience from Hapkido and other arts start seeing in the motions of Taekwondo a sort of abstraction of movements from outside the art, and teach that interpretation to their students, does that mean the art has expanded to include new techniques that were previously not part of the art? Or are those techniques part of the art any from history and the forms were designed to illustrate them as well and they're just not as noticed or taught as directly?

Bear in mind that I'm still reading the book and I don't even know all the characters yet and the plot keeps surprising me

 

[Jagermeister]

The simple and definitive answer to your question is NO.

It's true that some people who have trained to defend against blades have done so successfully. But it's also true that untrained people have done likewise. It has more to do with chance than with training or preparation.

Anyone who feels confident with their chances in an open-hand vs. knife encounter is a fool. I know a lot of people wish that this wasn't the truth, but it is.

 

[darkell]

I trained in TKD for almost 7 years and am now doing Kalis Ilustrisimo.

A fair amount of our training in Kalis deals with how to attack with and defend against knives. Even then our instructor says that while he'd take on anyone sword to sword he'd still hesitate going knife to knife.

The unarmed fighting/sparring/training you do in TKD does nothing to prepare you for fighting against a knife. If you want a simple demostration pair up with someone holding a black marker pen and see how many times they can draw on you before you can take it off them. (Remember its a lot easier to cut someone than draw on them.)

 

[jonah2]

...If you want a simple demostration pair up with someone holding a black marker pen and see how many times they can draw on you before you can take it off them. (Remember its a lot easier to cut someone than draw on them.)

Agreed - and those marks will be from the tip only. Try the same excercise with a training knife with red lipstick along the edge - far more marks than a pen. Just shows how easily a cut can be made even if you THINK you are controlling the attacker and blade.

jonah

 

[arnisador]

Yup. Even when I get a 'successful' disarm in training, it's not uncommon for me to get nicked somewhere along the way.

It's just much more different than people realize.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Training against the knife is at best an exercise in futility for two reasons.
First, the vast majority of folks focus on a disarm based on technical prowess. Secondly, the training venues, as well meaning as "quasi realistic" as folks wish to tout it, falls short because nothing is really "on the line", so the defender will not go full out with whatever they are defending with. Now the attacker can and does go full out (marker or dull knife with paint or such on it), because he can and not hurt his training partner. This becomes a one sided encounter and only proves that you can and will be cut/stabbed if your not committed. That unto itself is good feedback, but only if the training re-routes itself to something better. That something better IMO is to deliver a counter strike while blocking/re-routing, to debilitating areas of the body and not focus on attempting a disarm. A disarm becomes eminently easier if the attacker is struggling to breathe, see or stand.

 

[darkell]

Training against the knife is at best an exercise in futility for two reasons.
First, the vast majority of folks focus on a disarm based on technical prowess. Secondly, the training venues, as well meaning as "quasi realistic" as folks wish to tout it, falls short because nothing is really "on the line", so the defender will not go full out with whatever they are defending with. Now the attacker can and does go full out (marker or dull knife with paint or such on it), because he can and not hurt his training partner. This becomes a one sided encounter and only proves that you can and will be cut/stabbed if your not committed. That unto itself is good feedback, but only if the training re-routes itself to something better. That something better IMO is to deliver a counter strike while blocking/re-routing, to debilitating areas of the body and not focus on attempting a disarm. A disarm becomes eminently easier if the attacker is struggling to breathe, see or stand.

I disagree with this. Firstly, while fighting against a knife is very dangerous it can be done. Especially if you can pick up your own weapon.
As for not having anything on the line, its a valid point but I would say that training hard and intensely while still trying to be safe is about the only thing you can realistically do. If you spar once realistically with a real knife chances are you'll never spar again, and then how are you supposed to defend yourself?

One other thing, a disarm doesn't just mean taking the weapon off the opponent. I can mean hitting the weapon or the arm so hard that it flies out of their hand. For instance, the Antonio Ilustrisimo used to sometimes disarm people by cutting off the thumb of the hand holding the weapon (this was with swords not knives though). But then he could be a nasty peice of work.

 

[Brad Dunne]

On my part, I dislike being objectionable, but in this case I have to be.

"I disagree with this. Firstly, while fighting against a knife is very dangerous it can be done. Especially if you can pick up your own weapon".

OK!, I agreed that knife defenses can/do work, but I was somewhat specific in my approach. We were talking about TKD defenses which has nothing to do with weapons availability........so it's apples to oranges.

"As for not having anything on the line, its a valid point but I would say that training hard and intensely while still trying to be safe is about the only thing you can realistically do".

I concur, but one can only go so far with being intense, before harm to another is accomplished. This unto itself reduces what is really applicable to true knife defenses. The only honest thing that can be taught is trying to influence the mindset during the training time. That along with going after specific strikes that would/should stop or greatly reduce the attackers determination to harm/kill you. Regardless of how much training anyone undergoes, being put to the real test is the only measure of success and some folks just may not have it in them to do what's needed in that situation.

"If you spar once realistically with a real knife chances are you'll never spar again, and then how are you supposed to defend yourself?"

The only thing I can deduce from that statement is that it's contradictory in essence. Although no-one suggested full out with a real knife, the statement suggests that one would be killed ("never spar again"), so that would mean that no training is worth attempting, it's a lose-lose situation.

"One other thing, a disarm doesn't just mean taking the weapon off the opponent. I can mean hitting the weapon or the arm so hard that it flies out of their hand. For instance, the Antonio Ilustrisimo used to sometimes disarm people by cutting off the thumb of the hand holding the weapon (this was with swords not knives though)".

I'm sorry, but again we're dealing with apples to oranges with the sword analogy. As for the first part of hitting the weapon arm/hand, I concur that this could be a viable defense, but only if the defender is strong enough to inflict a serious strike and connects with in the right place. As I stated previously, strikes to more receptive areas would be encouraged for anyone, for strength is not a preference for these targets.

 

[bignick]

For those losing hope, knife defenses can do work...my friend, who was a brown belt in jujutsu at the time was in England visiting his sister and brother-in-law. His brother-in-law left him in a bar in the middle of Birmingham. As he was making his way, (he thought), towards his sister's place he found himself in a not so upscale area of the city. At that point two guys approached him and one tried to stab him with a knife, he blocked the thrust grabbed the knife hand and did a kote gaeshi...as he threw he said he drove the attacker's arm/elbow into the concrete while holding their hand in a gokkyo position. That attacker was out of the picture and the other one decided it wasn't just worth it and fled.

There's always hope...

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Can Tae Kwon Do affectively defend against a knife attack utilizing authentic Tae Kwon Do techniques?

Sure can. I have forgotten the name of the technique, but it goes like this. Attacker pointed a knife to our stomach. We raise our hands pretending to surrender. Suddenly we kick the knife-holding hand at the wrist using the inner side of our right foot (the one under the big toe). This will clear the knife out of the way, so that, using the same foot (and without putting it to the floor), we can kick him on the groin, stomach or chin. Then RUN while he is stunned

I think with Taekwondo's emphasis to kick FAST several times without putting down the foot, you can apply it to any stick up or grabbing attack from the front.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I've found spraying your attacker in the face with gasoline works pretty good at disarming them.....long story. =)

 

[arnisador]

Attacker pointed a knife to our stomach. We raise our hands pretending to surrender. Suddenly we kick the knife-holding hand at the wrist using the inner side of our right foot (the one under the big toe). This will clear the knife out of the way, so that, using the same foot (and without putting it to the floor), we can kick him on the groin, stomach or chin. Then RUN

I have a lot of qualms about this technique. It assumes the person is kicking length away when he holds up the knife--why not run then? There are two serious opportunities for a cut to the foot/ankle/shin--if he moves the knife as you kick and cuts you then, and if you don't kick it as far away as hoped or he pulls it back to position quickly--that groin kick could run your leg right down the blade.

If the person moves the knife just a little, the first kick misses and he can counterattack. I think this is a very optimistic technique!

 

[MJS]

Sure can. I have forgotten the name of the technique, but it goes like this. Attacker pointed a knife to our stomach. We raise our hands pretending to surrender. Suddenly we kick the knife-holding hand at the wrist using the inner side of our right foot (the one under the big toe). This will clear the knife out of the way, so that, using the same foot (and without putting it to the floor), we can kick him on the groin, stomach or chin. Then RUN while he is stunned

I think with Taekwondo's emphasis to kick FAST several times without putting down the foot, you can apply it to any stick up or grabbing attack from the front.

Questions for you.

1: If the person is that close, how are you going to be able to kick them?

2: With the person being that close and not assuming that they're going to stand there while you execute your defense, don't you think that they're going to see you move and thrust into your stomach?

Mike

 

[arnisador]

With the person being that close and not assuming that they're going to stand there while you execute your defense, don't you think that they're going to see you move and thrust into your stomach?

We were practicing this technique last night, against a Thai-style push kick. We were using sticks and so were at a slightly greater range, but after practicing avoiding the leg, we practiced striking the leg as a block/counter, then practiced stabbing to the midsection as a stop.

No one's kick is so strong that they can afford to trade a kick for a stab. Of course, if kicking is what you're good at, you may need to go with your strengths!

 

[bignick]

There are two serious opportunities for a cut to the foot/ankle/shin--if he moves the knife as you kick and cuts you then, and if you don't kick it as far away as hoped or he pulls it back to position quickly--that groin kick could run your leg right down the blade.

If the person moves the knife just a little, the first kick misses and he can counterattack. I think this is a very optimistic technique!

Don't forget the femoral artery, also kicking the blade hand may buy you time but it doesn absolutely nothing in terms of actually controlling the weapon. Not my idea of a good knife defense...

 

[MJS]

No one's kick is so strong that they can afford to trade a kick for a stab. Of course, if kicking is what you're good at, you may need to go with your strengths!

For me, attempting any kick while facing someone with a knife, is going to be the last thing I'd do. Now, if I had control of the weapon arm/hand, etc, a stomp to the foot, knee, shin, low kick to the groin, to aid in my defense, may be an option.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

I agree. When possible, I like to control the arm and then launch knees to the thigh/groin, with the intent of pummeling the legs until the person falls down. A man who can't stand, can't fight (er, unless I get pulled down into groundfighting of course--an ugly scenario when a knife is involved).

 

[FearlessFreep]

The only kick I would go for if facing a knife as an opening move would be at the knee...and something *hard*