Tae Kwon do Gun Disarms

[Bigshadow]

I only had problems if I did not maintain contact with the attacker.

It has been my experience that contact IS VERY IMPORTANT! IMHO, if you lose contact you are essentially starting over at square one (depending on how fast the attacker feels the opening). It is much like throwing an attacker away from you so they can get up and re-engage, thus the cycle begins again. At this point it is a battle of stamina.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Is part of the issue of guns simply that most people don't understand them and so we fear them in a way that has nothing to do with their actual danger. For example, a drove to Denver last weekend with a friend and I know he had a .38 in the car for self-defense. I casually asked him if he trained/practiced with it, which he does, because I was afraid of him needing to use it and not knowing how to handle it.

I think of the differences between a knife and a gun. A gun has more lethal power, but it has to be fired and is only dangerous aling the line of fire. A knife has shorter range and possibly less lethal power, but is always on and can cut or stab from many angles. Not saying either is less or more dangerous, they are just different. (and for that matter, a trained fighter who can kick and strike from many directions is different from a knife-weilder who will probably only attack with the knife)

I guess I'm wondering if people have an unnatural fear of guns owed mostly to unfamiliarity. A gun is a very potentially dangerous weapon, but it has weaknesses as well. Do we defend against it with an healthy respect or an unhealthy phobia or....

I guess past the principle of "don't let your body cross the barrel" I'm not sure what principles I should be looking at. Obviously, keeping the attaker from pointing at you is a good thing, but then what, do you just control the hand/wrist and strike the head to take the guy out? Do you try to take away the gun (and do you do that by wrestling the gun or by destroying the limb)?

Is gun defense/knife defense a new world of self-defense? Or is it an extension of existing principles/motions/evansions and strikes?

 

[FearlessFreep]

if you lose contact you are essentially starting over at square one

I think I alluded to that in talking about the crescent kick, that if you don't kick the gun from the opponent that you have started over, but given them reason to be more aggressive

 

[Bigshadow]

Is part of the issue of guns simply that most people don't understand them and so we fear them in a way that has nothing to do with their actual danger.

IMHO, Yes! People have an unnatural phobia of guns because they are generally unfamiliar with them. Don't get me wrong, someone weilding a gun can dole out death very quickly.

I think of the differences between a knife and a gun. A gun has more lethal power, but it has to be fired and is only dangerous aling the line of fire. A knife has shorter range and possibly less lethal power, but is always on and can cut or stab from many angles. Not saying either is less or more dangerous, they are just different. (and for that matter, a trained fighter who can kick and strike from many directions is different from a knife-weilder who will probably only attack with the knife)

In my opinion you are seeing the similarities. In principle the gun is no different than a knife. The only difference is the length of the blade(the bullet tragectory in the case of the gun). Essentially the gunshot is no different than a tsuki with a sword, just the "blade" is infinitely longer.

I guess past the principle of "don't let your body cross the barrel" I'm not sure what principles I should be looking at. Obviously, keeping the attaker from pointing at you is a good thing, but then what, do you just control the hand/wrist and strike the head to take the guy out? Do you try to take away the gun (and do you do that by wrestling the gun or by destroying the limb)?

In my opinion the same principles that deal with a knife deals with a gun (at least from the way I see it). It is the mental fear of the gun that makes people want to change their tactics. I think someone terms that Fear reactivity. Certainly a gun can be more lethal if you get shot (stabbed by it) because of the damage of it. But the reality is the bullet goes in a straight line out of the barrel therefore it is yet in principle another bladed weapon.

 

[Bigshadow]

if you lose contact you are essentially starting over at square one

I think I alluded to that in talking about the crescent kick, that if you don't kick the gun from the opponent that you have started over, but given them reason to be more aggressive

Yes, you did! My apologies, I wasn't trying to repeat, it just seemed to flow out as I was typing.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Thanks upnorth, for trying that out and letting us know.

By 'check' I'm taking you to mean some sort of strike/block to the weapin hand/wrist/arm to clear the gun out from pointing at you?

 

[Loki]

This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:

1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
2. Contain/control the weapon.
3. Disarm the attacker.
4. Neutralize the attack.

Anybody else follow this?

Yes we do, but we make a point of sending at least one attack before disarming in order to stun. A stunned attacker that just got punched in the face is going to be much easier to disarm. With one exception, this is how we do it.

A kid in one of the groups I used to assist in instructing (a five year old) once told me he knows how to disarm an attacker with a gun. I asked him how and he showed me an inner crescent kick to disarm, inwards spin and another crescent as an attack. I asked him where he learned that, to which he replied "on TV!". Not a recommended technique.

I've made some promises before, but now that training is back in session (we have summers off), I'll get to work on having those gun videos posted.

 

[Cryozombie]

I've made some promises before, but now that training is back in session (we have summers off), I'll get to work on having those gun videos posted.

Are those Krav Maga techniques for gun disarms loki?

I have a Krav Maga gun disarm video, Id be interested to see the techniques the way you do them.

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,

In no way did I attempt to sound demeaning or to be speaking down regarding anyones theories or training. Everyone has issued his or her own rational and logical opinions.

To BigShadow, I believe what you have to say holds great merit. I also should stop and think of this from a civilian mindset. Not all individuals train to fight with a gun, and fortunately I would feel correct in saying that the majority of criminals are among those.

Originally, I looked at this from the view of a compatent martial artist that actively works around firearms and trains to fight with them (as opposed to randomly robbing people) from a combat perspective. From that perspective I see what I feel are holes in your logic, but from that view I see holes in mine as well!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[Cryozombie]

Dear All,

Originally, I looked at this from the view of a compatent martial artist that actively works around firearms and trains to fight with them (as opposed to randomly robbing people) from a combat perspective. From that perspective I see what I feel are holes in your logic, but from that view I see holes in mine as well!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

From that perspective, I would never let a guy get close enough to take it from me... Thats just silly talk. (Not you, the idea of doing that)

 

[Loki]

Are those Krav Maga techniques for gun disarms loki?

I have a Krav Maga gun disarm video, Id be interested to see the techniques the way you do them.

Yeah, they are.

Could you post a link?

 

[Cryozombie]

Yeah, they are.

Could you post a link?

Oh, no, I meant I have a Video, as in like a training tape...

http://www.kravmaga.com/store/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jnnrpop0

Thats the tape... its kinda different than what we do, but was interesting to see.

Here is a link to a clip off the video... the bottom two are from the Gun defense video:

http://www.kravmaga.com/video.asp

 

[Loki]

Oh, no, I meant I have a Video, as in like a training tape...

http://www.kravmaga.com/store/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jnnrpop0

Thats the tape... its kinda different than what we do, but was interesting to see.

Gotcha. I plan to bombard Bob with KM material, so there'll be plenty to compare ;-)

 

[Miles]

This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:

1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
2. Contain/control the weapon.
3. Disarm the attacker.
4. Neutralize the attack.

Anybody else follow this?

I teach to distract before you go off the line. Can be very simple-quickly look over the attacker's opposite side (i.e. if holding gun in right hand, look over his left shoulder). Otherwise, same stuff, same order.

Miles

Miles

 

[Cryozombie]

I teach to distract before you go off the line. Can be very simple-quickly look over the attacker's opposite side
Miles

I see merit in that... because I think even if he/she isnt going to "fall for it" its going to change their mental focus.

I would liken it to having somone start a fight with you, and then you looking past them and saying "Oh ****, dude, cops!" They might not stop, but a portion of their attention/mental state is going that way.

 

[Makalakumu]

Personally, I think its safer to always assume your attacker is going to draw smoothly and fire immediately. The less an empty handed defender hesitates, the more chance the defender has of turning the tables...IMO.

 

[Cryozombie]

Personally, I think its safer to always assume your attacker is going to draw smoothly and fire immediately. The less an empty handed defender hesitates, the more chance the defender has of turning the tables...IMO.

Im thinking more in the case of somone "holding you" at gunpoint.

I have worked numerous techniques for "stopping" the draw... i consider that different.

 

[shesulsa]

I teach to distract before you go off the line. Can be very simple-quickly look over the attacker's opposite side (i.e. if holding gun in right hand, look over his left shoulder). Otherwise, same stuff, same order.

Miles

The four rules are the essential points - "game" or "the act" is tantamount as well. Distraction is important.

Here's a good distraction story. A master I know was teaching a now black belt I also know some weapons disarms and told her to create a distraction. She lifted her top and flashed him.

It worked! :boing1:

 

[FearlessFreep]

I haven't learned that one yet....

 

[Gemini]

She lifted her top and flashed him.

It worked! :boing1:

Woulda' worked on me....