Tae Kwon Do and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

[granfire]

If he likes both then good for him, but like most I think he will eventially have to gravitate towards one. If the juijitsu is anything worth while he'll find that his body will suffer and the rigors of taking two martial arts at the same time will have its toll. Also if the kids are just rolling around and learning escapes I think that is fine but if the teacher starts to teach them chokes, like triangle chokes, and arms bars I would pull my kid. I don't think kids have the control to know when to stop. I like to see kids in Judo anyway. Most kids go to the ground when they fight and Judo can give that knowledge as well as throwing without bringing in the things like choking and arm locks and wrist locks. I think its just safer but you can only work with what is available to you in your area. I would just definitely monitor the juijitsu.

It is up to the instructor to convey the limit.

That is 2fold: The person in submission has to tap out, the other person has to stop NOW! And while kids get a little carried away in the non TKD programs, when safety is at stake, the fun stops yesterday. And yes, I got after a youngster for performing falls in a wrong and unsafe manner...making little kids cry is just all in a day's work for me (that his daddy told him not to listen to them there white women is another story in itself and subject for another day)

 

[MJS]

I was just wondering what the TKD folks think of studying a combination of Tae Kwon Do and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have a 7 year old son who has been studying TKD for 1.5 years and he just received his blue belt. He has also been studying (Gracie) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for around 5 months and just recieved his grey belt (advance white belt for children as there is no real grey belt). He loves both disciplines and especially loves TKD sparring and BJJ rolling. As part of his TKD tournament, they have a Sports Jiu Jitsu event in which TKD-style stikes are allowed until the clinch at which point no strikes are allowed. He dominates all the kids in his size/weight class and often the kids much bigger than him so it seems to be paying off. I'm thinking that the Japanese Jiu Jitsu they teach as part of the TKD curriculum is "watered down". Any thoughts?

I don't do TKD, but I do train BJJ when time allows, so I thought I'd toss in my 2 pennies. IMO, having an understanding of the ground is very important and that goes for any art. Sure, we hear all the time that we'll never be taken down, the techniques in the standup arts will be good enough to avoid a takedown, a takedown can be avoided by a proper rooted stance, etc., etc. The list goes on and on. While thats all fine, personally, I don't like to assume anything. Anything can happen and we just may find ourselves on the ground, so I feel its important to know some basics, as well as how to properly get back to a standing position.

I do feel though, that its important to have a solid base art first, before crosstraining. I'm not familiar with the TKD ranking structure, so I don't know where blue belt stands. People don't have to do this, but IMO, I think its good to have a solid foundation first, then take on something else.

In this case, it seems your child is already training BJJ, seems like he's enjoying it, and it doing well. Things may be slightly 'watered down' due to the age of the person learning, but with time, I'm sure things will change.

Sorry for the long rant. As long as he's enjoying it, in the end, it'll just end up making him a more well rounded martial artist.

 

[MJS]

Curious...why not self defense?... because I am the one who tells him that if anyone tries to harm him, he has my permission to do what is necessary to keep from being harmed and leave the grown up stuff to me. (ie. teachers, parents, lawsuits, etc...)

I see where Twin Fist and SteveBjj are both coming from, and hopefully this thread will not spiral to a "BJJ sucks" thread. There are a number of things from BJJ that can be transitioned to a standing position, of course, with some minor modifications, due to the fact that we're not on the ground, but standing.

The usual thought is that a BJJist is where they want to take the fight, and if we look at the early UFCs with Royce, that is exactly where he went..to the ground. Now, adding in some solid standup work to BJJ, and yes, you'll have alot to handle. Royce, IMO, doesn't have solid standup, thus, he looks to clinch and take the fight to his comfort zone.

Is going to the ground a bad thing? Yes and no and I would say that alot depends on the situation. That discussion has been beat like a dead horse, so I really don't want to rehash that one...although I'm sure it'll come up anyways.

So, to answer your original question....like any art, you need to seperate the sport from the street aspect. Intentionally taking someone down, when there just may be something you can do to finish standing, isn't wise IMO, but again, thats just me. However, like I said earlier, if you could clinch and apply a choke or lock while standing, vs. busting someone up...well, in the end, you may save yourself some headaches.

 

[Twin Fist]

hey steve, it isnt my fault that BJJ is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love grappling, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is rolling around on concrete.....BJJ alone will get your *** killed on the street.

I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the gracies created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true

I worked bars for 10 years, went to the ground a couple times, know what I did? i got back up. I had more multiple opponents than ground fights by an order of magnitude. And BJJ is pretty much worthless versus multiple opponents

And look at the track record, the gracies themselves, the people that created it couldnt handle a decent striker.

BTW steve, it doesnt really work to cry "you are hating on BJJ" then turn right around start hating on TKD

 

[Twin Fist]

MJS
I love you man

sorry if i came across as a little blunt, but i am a simple man, so i speak simply

yes, everyone needs a little bit of everything if they want to be well rounded

 

[Nolerama]

hey steve, it isnt my fault that BJJ is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love grappling, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is rolling around on concrete.....BJJ alone will get your *** killed on the street.

I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the gracies created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true

I don't agree with the quoted statement. But to elaborate is to open a whole new can of worms...

However, I do think that cross training in a striking and grappling art makes complete sense. Kudos to the OP and his son for exploring that sort of thing. Regardless, the kid will get a workout, play less video games, and probably shower more... on top of learning a couple of MAs.

 

[Twin Fist]

However, I do think that cross training in a striking and grappling art makes complete sense. Kudos to the OP and his son for exploring that sort of thing. Regardless, the kid will get a workout, play less video games, and probably shower more... on top of learning a couple of MAs.

QFT

cant agree more

 

[SA_BJJ]

because in BJJ you WANT to be on the ground, in fact, if all you know if BJJ, you are helpless untill you are on the ground

in REAL self defense the ground isnt your friend, you dont want to be there, and while you are trying for that armbar, his cousin Bubba is gonna be kicking a hole in your face.

so NO, BJJ is not for self defense.

that "90% of all fights go to the ground" crap is just that, crap.

Wow...you are truly misinformed. There is sooooo much more to BJJ that walking up to someone and pulling guard. BJJ is s hell of alot more practical than say kung fu. Sorry for those that take kung fu, just my opinion.

 

[Twin Fist]

dont TELL me i am wrong, tell me HOW i am wrong.

it makes a better point

 

[myusername]

dont TELL me i am wrong, tell me HOW i am wrong.

it makes a better point

hey Twin Fist, it isn't my fault that TKD is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love jumping spinning high kicks, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is throwing spinning head kicks and giving my back to the attacker..... TKD alone will get your *** killed on the street.

I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the Korean's created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true.

Do you see how this is wrong?

 

[Tez3]

Arguing over whether one should go to the ground or not in a street fight has been done to death on this and other forums and to carry the old argument on here takes the attention away from the OP which is about a child learning two styles.

We teach the children in our classes both stand up and ground work, they enjoy both. They learn from both and makes them as well rounded martial artists as we can manage in the time they are with us.

As well teaching them both we try to introduce them to as many different styles as we can, so that when they move on from us and go to another club (it's likely the style won't be the same as ours) they feel more comfortable. For example we do 'left fighting stance' and put left foot forward, we'll explain that in some styles they put right foot back, that sort of thing. We don't teach them different styles just try to give them a flavour of other styles other than the one they are doing up now.

 

[matt.m]

Arguing over whether one should go to the ground or not in a street fight has been done to death on this and other forums and to carry the old argument on here takes the attention away from the OP which is about a child learning two styles.

We teach the children in our classes both stand up and ground work, they enjoy both. They learn from both and makes them as well rounded martial artists as we can manage in the time they are with us.

As well teaching them both we try to introduce them to as many different styles as we can, so that when they move on from us and go to another club (it's likely the style won't be the same as ours) they feel more comfortable. For example we do 'left fighting stance' and put left foot forward, we'll explain that in some styles they put right foot back, that sort of thing. We don't teach them different styles just try to give them a flavour of other styles other than the one they are doing up now.

In my Judo class I often teach 'combination' techniques. For example: Major outer reaping throw to scarf or shoulder hold. That sort of thing.

If there is one thing I can say good about Gracie's BJJ is that it 'reminded' everyone that they need to know how to fight/defend themselves on the ground.

 

[Twin Fist]

hey Twin Fist, it isn't my fault that TKD is pretty much worthless for self defense. I love jumping spinning high kicks, for SPORT but that is all it is, a SPORT. On the street? the last thing i will be doing is throwing spinning head kicks and giving my back to the attacker..... TKD alone will get your *** killed on the street.

I am not art bashing, I love the sport art the Korean's created. But that is what it is, a SPORT art. Sorry, but it is true.

Do you see how this is wrong?

yeah, cuz that is FACTUALLY wrong. Unless you are talking about Olympic style wtf crap.

I wasnt wrong about BJJ. You might not LIKE it, but I wasnt wrong by any means. Sure, high kicks are not a good idea, and might very well get you hurt, but there is MORE to TKD than high kicks. Ask the ROK marines.

There is NOTHING to bjj that aint on the ground. On the STREET, you dont want to be on the ground.

I MAY have been overly blunt, but i am not factaully wrong.

And tez has a point, the OP was about kids being exposed to different styles, and thats a GOOD thing, as long as they are told the TRUTH about what is GOOD self defense and what isnt.

 

[Tez3]

The point that one doesn't want to be on the ground in a street fight is valid but the truth is sometimes what you want isn't what you get!
In BJJ there are takedowns and of course the escapes from takedowns which will hopefully stop you going to ground! We also do chokes, arm bars and other holds from standing.
Other BJJ techniques include the defences against grabs, chokes, headlocks, bearhugs, kicks, shoulder grabs etc etc all done from standing. If you look at Renzo and Royler Gracies book on BJJ you will see in section 61 how to stand up properly in a street fight. In chapter 10 of Renzo Gracies and John Danaher's book Mastering Jujitsu you will find an excellent section on street self defence, where it's all standing.

We show the kids we teach as much about other styles and martial arts because our children will only be with us a maximum of three years sometimes its less depending on their age when they join us. We have a couple of civilian children who hopefully will stay with us until adults but you never know. Our children will be moving when their parents are posted or are demobbed and as we want them to stay in martial arts we teach them about other arts they can go into.

 

[myusername]

yeah, cuz that is FACTUALLY wrong. Unless you are talking about Olympic style wtf crap.

I wasnt wrong about BJJ. You might not LIKE it, but I wasnt wrong by any means. Sure, high kicks are not a good idea, and might very well get you hurt, but there is MORE to TKD than high kicks. Ask the ROK marines.

There is NOTHING to bjj that aint on the ground. On the STREET, you dont want to be on the ground.

I MAY have been overly blunt, but i am not factaully wrong.

And tez has a point, the OP was about kids being exposed to different styles, and thats a GOOD thing, as long as they are told the TRUTH about what is GOOD self defense and what isnt.

Yes I agree it was factually wrong, TKD is an awesome martial art and is certainly not worthless for self defence. I also agree that there is so much more to TKD than high kicks. I don't need to ask the ROK marines as I have studied a bit of TKD myself.

The post you are reacting to is exactly what you had written about BJJ. It's not very nice is it? It is also blinkered, prejudiced and wrong. If I had a chip on my shoulder about TKD and wanted to press home the point I could ignore all the finer points of that art and all the good examples of TKD training and techniques and focus entirely on the McDojangs teaching limited skills. That would also be wrong. It is a shame that this is exactly what you are doing with BJJ. Yes there is more to TKD than high kicks just as much as there is more to BJJ than overly complex triangle chokes.

If your point is just that BJJ is a sport then fair enough, but your point was that BJJ is completely worthless in self defence. It is assuming that as BJJ is trained as a sport it can not be adapted to self defence situations. It ignores that a large amount of the techniques in BJJ can actually be applied standing up. It assumes that in a self defence situation the BJJ person is not going to bite, elbow, knee, headbutt or eye gouge and get up and run as soon as possible.

Just because BJJ is a sport does not mean it can not be adapted for self defence just like Judo and Boxing or any sporting martial art. No body would be blinkered enough to claim that boxing is useless for self-defence because the practitioner would be too busy putting on his gloves whilst the attacker hit him!

It's odd really as we probably have very similar views on self defence and the dangers of being tied up on the ground but I just don't buy into the BJJ is useless for self defence theme.

Getting back to the point of the thread, the fact that TKD and BJJ both produce such extreme reactions between practitioners indicates that it is probably a fantastic combination of martial arts for a child to study as they will be covering both bases and will be well rounded no matter what angle you take on it.

 

[Twin Fist]

I aint getting into this any further. Keep doing your thing, I will keep doing my self defense system.


"If you look at Renzo and Royler Gracies book on BJJ you will see in section 61 how to stand up properly in a street fight. In chapter 10 of Renzo Gracies and John Danaher's book Mastering Jujitsu you will find an excellent section on street self defence, where it's all standing."

Sounds interesting tez, i will look for that. I have said before that BJJ, MODIFIED can be usefull. Un-modified? nope, i aint gonna lie to my students and tell them they can depend on grappling. That might just get them killed.

 

[Tez3]

On page 6 of Renzo and Roylers book it talks about BJJ for self defence. I quote
" People tend to underestimate the versatility of Brazlilian Juijitsu because when they see it in action in mixed martial arts events, ground fighting plays the major role. However Brazilian juijitsu has a great range of techniques in a standing clinch situation that allows a student to defeat an aggressor without going to ground."
In section 5 of the same book the very first techniques shown is a defence against a two handed choke, standing. Section 6, defence against a single wrist grab plam up, then in 7 a single handed wrist grab plam down, it's section 14 before you get to a floor technique. That's in the blue belt syllabus.

I don't think BJJ techniques need to be modified at all, I think that a closer look at all the BJJ techniques needs to be looked at before stating that everything is on the ground.

 

[Twin Fist]

never had my wrists grabbed


The problem as i see it, is that in a grappling system, i have to tie up both my hands, and if both my hands are hitting them, i am not blocking or hitting them.

plus the multiple bad guy stuff.

but whatever

 

[Tez3]

I've had my wrists grabbed, it's a thing guys do to women (and children) more than to other men.

As to the multiple attacker thing I quote again from Renzo and Royler, ( I enjoy this book as Royler is fit and my favourite Gracie lol)

" Grappling skills wil not allow you to destroy several attackers at once. Brazilian juijitsu makes no claim to teach a method of overwhelming mass attacks. Should you be heavily outnumbered, BJJ will not save you. It is the contention of the authors that no other style of empty hand fighting will save you either.(their italics) the martial arts world is full of overinflated claims...."

 

[Steve]

Arguing over whether one should go to the ground or not in a street fight has been done to death on this and other forums and to carry the old argument on here takes the attention away from the OP which is about a child learning two styles.

Exactly. It's the usual suspects twisting every thread into the same tired rhetoric and agendas that gets old fast.

We teach the children in our classes both stand up and ground work, they enjoy both. They learn from both and makes them as well rounded martial artists as we can manage in the time they are with us.

Sounds pretty typical. My daughter's "BJJ" class is taught primarily by a blue belt in BJJ who is a black belt in karate. He mixes in both. The primary difference in this class over other classes I've seen is the emphasis on pressure testing techniques and sparring.

Regarding the original posts, I think it's great to pursue both. As a guy with three kids, my first thought is where you get the time to get your kids to both! I have enough trouble getting my daughter to BJJ and my son to drum lessons. Fortunately, our baby has a few years before she's involved in anything... and by then the older kids will be able to drive her!