Tae Guek applications text?

[IcemanSK]

I'm reluctant to attribute mystical knowledge or secret esoteric wisdom to the the Kwan founders or other MAists of their generation.


In this case, exile, it's not an issue of attributing wisdom on GM Park, it's a horse's mouth sort of issue. Since GM Park, Hae Man was one of the men who designed the Tae Gueks, he can accurately discuss the intent of the techniques.

Your point is well made in the case of most other folks, though.

 

[YoungMan]

We're not talking mysticism here, we're talking forms application. And I don't think it's necessary to look at Japanese forms for "proper" interpretation. Hae Man Park, Woon Kyu Uhm, and other senior masters of Taekwondo know enough about vital points, power, technique, and application that referencing some Japanese form in the hopes it will give you needed or "correct" info is unnecessary.

 

[exile]

In this case, exile, it's not an issue of attributing wisdom on GM Park, it's a horse's mouth sort of issue. Since GM Park, Hae Man was one of the men who designed the Tae Gueks, he can accurately discuss the intent of the techniques.

Have you seen or heard of any sources where he or any of the other Taegeuk designers ever said anything about street-practical applications of those forms, Ice? I've seen suggested 'applications' in various places, but these were mostly extremely unrealistic.

 

[IcemanSK]

Have you seen or heard of any sources where he or any of the other Taegeuk designers ever said anything about street-practical applications of those forms, Ice? I've seen suggested 'applications' in various places, but these were mostly extremely unrealistic.

No I haven't. That's why I'd ask GM Park when given the chance.

 

[terryl965]

No I haven't. That's why I'd ask GM Park when given the chance.

And when you do please post what he says. How about talking to GM Sells about it he knows Park.

 

[IcemanSK]

And when you do please post what he says. How about talking to GM Sells about it he knows Park.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. GM Sell is a direct student of GM Park.

 

[terryl965]

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. GM Sell is a direct student of GM Park.

Yes I know

 

[IcemanSK]

Yes I know

I just mentioned it for those who were unaware.

 

[terryl965]

I just mentioned it for those who were unaware.

I know and when you talk to him please post the result for all of us.

 

[GlassJaw]

Have you seen or heard of any sources where he or any of the other Taegeuk designers ever said anything about street-practical applications of those forms, Ice? I've seen suggested 'applications' in various places, but these were mostly extremely unrealistic.

GM Hae Man Park visited our dojang last autumn and conducted a forms seminar. On a number of occasions, he paused to indicate the actions of the hypothetical attacker(s) so that we could execute our blocks at the correct angles and our counters at the right targets.

It wasn't along the lines of "an attacker might be doing X", but rather, "the attacker is doing X". It gave me the distinct impression that not only are there potential defense scenarios behind every form in the Taegeuk series (of course), but that the scenarios are as set in stone as the defense movements themselves. I've always thought that was the case, but for me this was confirmation.

In some places I suspect that there have been compromises of practicality for the sake of symmetry and aesthetics but it has become clear to me that every move addresses a predetermined particular unseen opponent.

Now we just have to get the "bad guys" on the street to develop a complementary set of forms which put them in the right positions performing the same moves we're defending against.

Dan

P.S., I am idly curious whether some of the Korean-generated TKD forms series exhibit an emphasis on defending against techniques that are associated more closely with karate than with TKD.

 

[SageGhost83]

P.S., I am idly curious whether some of the Korean-generated TKD forms series exhibit an emphasis on defending against techniques that are associated more closely with karate than with TKD.

Well that's the thing - a lot of the sequences found within TKD forms were lifted directly from Karate, therefore, Karate holds a lot of clues as to the applications of what is found in TKD forms. The two styles are not that far removed form each other. I personally use the Bunkai rules I learned in Karate to gain insight into TKD forms and I have found some pretty interesting and highly effective apps within the forms. Beware of "dingle hoppers", though :lol:.

 

[YoungMan]

And the fallacy here is thinking that only by studying Japanese forms will you learn how to use Korean forms. Not true. Korean forms have their own insight and philosophy.

 

[SageGhost83]

And the fallacy here is thinking that only by studying Japanese forms will you learn how to use Korean forms. Not true. Korean forms have their own insight and philosophy.

I wasn't suggesting that, either. I was saying that since the two styles share a common base that one could be *helpful* in finding applications for the other, not that you *need* one to find the applications for the other. If style A imported a technique from style B, then you could find the application for the technique by looking in style B since that is where that technique originated from. Japanese Karateka often look to Okinawan Karate to find extra apps within their own katas, as well.

 

[YoungMan]

Understood. Unfortunately, some individuals have strongly hinted that only by studying Japanese and Okinawan forms will we truly understand Korean forms. I believe this is false.
Over the course of its existence, Taekwondo has developed its own way and reasons for doing things, whether in forms, kicking, sparring, or self defense.

 

[GlassJaw]

Well that's the thing - a lot of the sequences found within TKD forms were lifted directly from Karate, therefore, Karate holds a lot of clues as to the applications of what is found in TKD forms. The two styles are not that far removed form each other. I personally use the Bunkai rules I learned in Karate to gain insight into TKD forms and I have found some pretty interesting and highly effective apps within the forms. Beware of "dingle hoppers", though :lol:.

While my comment was largely tongue-in-cheek, what I was getting at was that, in choreographing the Korean forms, the designers had opportunity (albeit, very slight) to engineer in subtle combat advantage over the Japanese by planning for attackers who behave more like karateka than like TKDers.

That way, when a TKDer faces a karateka in a combat situation, the TKDer, being theoretically slightly more practiced against his opponent's style than the opponent is against TKD, would have an advantage and serve to promote a nationalistic notion that Korean TKD is "superior" to Japanese karate.

Yeah, I know. . .the very idea that one style (rather than an individual practitioner's skills) could be all-around demonstrably superior to any other is rather ridiculous. And the suggestion that nationalism may have noticeably affected the effectiveness of our forms against any particular style is a bit far-fetched. However, if the forms were developed at a time when the typical opponent or even "trained street thug" may have been stereotyped as a karateka, a bias could have slipped in there anyway.

Dan

 

[SageGhost83]

While my comment was largely tongue-in-cheek, what I was getting at was that, in choreographing the Korean forms, the designers had opportunity (albeit, very slight) to engineer in subtle combat advantage over the Japanese by planning for attackers who behave more like karateka than like TKDers.

That way, when a TKDer faces a karateka in a combat situation, the TKDer, being theoretically slightly more practiced against his opponent's style than the opponent is against TKD, would have an advantage and serve to promote a nationalistic notion that Korean TKD is "superior" to Japanese karate.

What would this combat advantage be, so to speak? Every Karateka is different and Karate itself is a very diverse art that contains many strategies, some even similar to TKD, so there really is no "combat advantage". They "engineered" the forms, but did they understand the forms and the bunkai that was in there to begin with? Did they actually know what they were doing when they created these forms, or did they just put them together or remix the existing ones to say "look! we have forms too and they look better than yours!" I seriously doubt that they would've changed the forms if they understood the applications behind them becuase a lot of the bunkai is downright nasty and, assuming that they have common sense, they would've kept those forms around to retain those devastating applications to use for themselves (if they knew them, which they didn't). Most of the "engineering" was a thinly veiled attempt to de-japanize their style and make it different from the original so that they could say that it was exclusively Korean and had no links to Japan (and sadly, some people believe the nationalist propaganda wholeheartedly). The only way to be more practiced against another style is to actually spar against people who are very proficient in that style. So no, they wouldn't have an advantage over the Karateka on that basis. As always, it would come down to who was the better individual, period. You're thinking outside of the box though, and that is good :cheers:.