I don't want to turn this into what kick is better than which, but I get the feeling that you've little appreciation for the efficiency and power of a roundhouse kick, when thrown by someone who knows what they are doing.
Poomsae applications
- Thread starter terryl965
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I don't want to turn this into what kick is better than which, but I get the feeling that you've little appreciation for the efficiency and power of a roundhouse kick, when thrown by someone who knows what they are doing.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I agree. The problem is that when people talk about kicking in 'real life situations', they are usually referring to people who cant kick or really havent done much kicking. A roundhouse kick executed by someone who knows what they are doing has devastating results, as do many other kicks that people say "wont work on the street".
zDom
Senior Master
Don't feel that way. Ask anyone who has ever seen me fold a muay thai 6-foot bag in with my roundhouse: pretty sure I know what I'm doing
Yea, many people do. But I can kick, have been doing a minimum 3,000 or 4,000 kicks per month for about 20 years. Probably done close to a million kicks now. Is that enough?
But you are both mentioning "someone who knows what they are doing."
What percentage of martial art students would that be? I am hearing the implication that just because I suggested a front kick might be a better choice for inclusion in forms, that I might not know what I am doing
Usually I'm on the other side of this discussion*Ā I think kicks are VERY viable for defense for those who know what they are doing. But what I'm asking in this thread is, Should forms be designed for the highest or lowest denominator?
Do you think a white belt knows a roundhouse well enough to use it in self defense? Or by their third form?
The fourth Taeguek has two side kicks in it. And that beloved roundkick is there, too: at the sixth Taeguek.
I appreciate the roundhouse. I think it is the front kick that is underappreciated.
Don't feel that way. Ask anyone who has ever seen me fold a muay thai 6-foot bag in with my roundhouse: pretty sure I know what I'm doing
Your six foot muay thai bag, does it swing off the ground or does the bottom touch the ground? As a general rule, we kick the bag with the bag suspended off the ground, but now the MMA people they hang the bag and rest the bottom on the ground. they say it gives a more realistic feel to kicking the bag. I used to think it was odd to have the bag touch the ground to the point where the bag bends, but now I am getting used to it.
You're getting there.
But seriously, I don't think too many students today are going to come close to those kinds of numbers, especially out of a commercial dojang with 45 minute classes. The only ones perhaps are those who are elite level competitors.ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I agree totally with what you are saying. My response was in regards to the k.i.s.s principle. I believe that for someone who can kick properly a roundhouse is 'keeping it simple'. I have always been taught that you should do a minimum of 1 hour outside the dojang for every hour in the dojang. Most people I train with adhere to this, so if we do 500-1000 kicks in class a week, then we should be doing a minimum of 500-1000 kicks a week outside of class, totalling a minimum of 1000-2000 kicks per week. I wasnt referring to white belts, my personal belief is that you should be very wary of throwing any kick in a real life situation until you are very proficient at them. I wouldnt be handing a tkd black belt to anyone who does not have very fast, accurate and powerful kicks. Fortunately, my instructors and GM feel the same way. Once kicking is at that sort of level I would find doing a roundhouse kick to be "keeping it simple".Don't feel that way. Ask anyone who has ever seen me fold a muay thai 6-foot bag in with my roundhouse: pretty sure I know what I'm doing
Yea, many people do. But I can kick, have been doing a minimum 3,000 or 4,000 kicks per month for about 20 years. Probably done close to a million kicks now. Is that enough?
But you are both mentioning "someone who knows what they are doing."
What percentage of martial art students would that be? I am hearing the implication that just because I suggested a front kick might be a better choice for inclusion in forms, that I might not know what I am doing
But what I'm asking in this thread is, Should forms be designed for the highest or lowest denominator?
Do you think a white belt knows a roundhouse well enough to use it in self defense? Or by their third form?
The fourth Taeguek has two side kicks in it. And that beloved roundkick is there, too: at the sixth Taeguek.
I appreciate the roundhouse. I think it is the front kick that is underappreciated.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
So, given that this is a poomsae applications thread, I'm going too post some suggested applications for the KKW Yudanja poomsae 'Koryo'. Comments / opinions / discussion / alternative applications are welcome. I'm working with the following assumptions to help me keep an open mind:
1) The movements have a chequered history -they may or may not be named as what they actually are
2) Any number of applications may exist for any movement, some more realistic than others
3) Sequences of movements may or may not be in a practical order in the pattern
4) Effective efficient movement is key to realistic self defence - if it effectively incapacitates in a simple way, then it works
5) Having any application is better than having no application. If it works under pressure, then it works. It doesn't matter so much whether it was the original intention.
6) High kicks may represent something other than a kick, and can be readily modified to adjust distance, sweep, knee, obstruct
7) Movements in the patterns are highly stylised. Under application, they are allowed to get messy. The amount of rotation (for example) may be reduced.
8) Certain movements are to illustrate specific principles, but they should also have a practical application
9) Perceived attacks may not be (are unlikely to be) martial arts based, but a straight punch or grab without any deep stance
10) Chamber motions may be used to block / cover / grab or pull
The slash / denotes alternative applications
Movement 1 - Tong Milgi Joonbi "Tube Pushing"
Hands on the sides of the head, eye gouge with the thumbs / Hands on the sides of the head, gouge to pressure points under the cheek bones / Knife hand strike to both collarbones / Release from twin wrist grab from behind /Representation of a frontal wrist lock / Ki gathering (!)
Movement 2 - Twin Knife Hand Block
Defensive stance at distance (not a block) / Blocking wrist with front hand / Blocking a right punch with the chamber motion, capture the wrist with the rear hand and strike to the neck under the opponent's arm / Blocking a left punch with the chamber, strike in at the carotid sinus area.
Movement 3 - Double 'Side Kick'
Kick to knee (solid or distraction), then kick to body or even thigh (head is impractical for me) / Low kick hooks behind closest leg to sweep on the pull back, second kick launches opponent whilst they stagger / Low kick takes out undercarriage whilst arm still held, middle kick chamber used to deliver knee strike to floating ribs (never actually using the kick), with a view to continuation with the next technique on the step down.
Movement 4 - Outward Knife Hand Strike
Outward knife hand strike to side of neck or base of skull / After the close knee, the front leg steps down next to the opponent, the chamber hand grabs the opponent's shoulder and the elbow of the straight striking is used to sweep the arms of the opponent clear and push him off balance into the defender's front leg, exposing the solar plexus for the following punch.
Movement 5 - Punch
Punch to the solar plexus / The chamber hand (the one previously Knife Hand Striking) grabs the shoulder, pulling back to waist chamber, whilst the punch is driven into the floating ribs or other available vital point (e.g. liver)
Movement 6 - 'Inward Block'
A purely defensive inward block / The chamber hand grabs the opponent's hair or back of collar, pulling back to the hip, whilst the right hand delivers the inward block to the side of the now prone opponent's neck or elbow (which can end up locked against your neck as you pull)
Should I carry on? Has anyone alternatives to offer, I'd love to exchange or expand ideas for this or any other KKW pattern?
1) The movements have a chequered history -they may or may not be named as what they actually are
2) Any number of applications may exist for any movement, some more realistic than others
3) Sequences of movements may or may not be in a practical order in the pattern
4) Effective efficient movement is key to realistic self defence - if it effectively incapacitates in a simple way, then it works
5) Having any application is better than having no application. If it works under pressure, then it works. It doesn't matter so much whether it was the original intention.
6) High kicks may represent something other than a kick, and can be readily modified to adjust distance, sweep, knee, obstruct
7) Movements in the patterns are highly stylised. Under application, they are allowed to get messy. The amount of rotation (for example) may be reduced.
8) Certain movements are to illustrate specific principles, but they should also have a practical application
9) Perceived attacks may not be (are unlikely to be) martial arts based, but a straight punch or grab without any deep stance
10) Chamber motions may be used to block / cover / grab or pull
The slash / denotes alternative applications
Movement 1 - Tong Milgi Joonbi "Tube Pushing"
Hands on the sides of the head, eye gouge with the thumbs / Hands on the sides of the head, gouge to pressure points under the cheek bones / Knife hand strike to both collarbones / Release from twin wrist grab from behind /Representation of a frontal wrist lock / Ki gathering (!)
Movement 2 - Twin Knife Hand Block
Defensive stance at distance (not a block) / Blocking wrist with front hand / Blocking a right punch with the chamber motion, capture the wrist with the rear hand and strike to the neck under the opponent's arm / Blocking a left punch with the chamber, strike in at the carotid sinus area.
Movement 3 - Double 'Side Kick'
Kick to knee (solid or distraction), then kick to body or even thigh (head is impractical for me) / Low kick hooks behind closest leg to sweep on the pull back, second kick launches opponent whilst they stagger / Low kick takes out undercarriage whilst arm still held, middle kick chamber used to deliver knee strike to floating ribs (never actually using the kick), with a view to continuation with the next technique on the step down.
Movement 4 - Outward Knife Hand Strike
Outward knife hand strike to side of neck or base of skull / After the close knee, the front leg steps down next to the opponent, the chamber hand grabs the opponent's shoulder and the elbow of the straight striking is used to sweep the arms of the opponent clear and push him off balance into the defender's front leg, exposing the solar plexus for the following punch.
Movement 5 - Punch
Punch to the solar plexus / The chamber hand (the one previously Knife Hand Striking) grabs the shoulder, pulling back to waist chamber, whilst the punch is driven into the floating ribs or other available vital point (e.g. liver)
Movement 6 - 'Inward Block'
A purely defensive inward block / The chamber hand grabs the opponent's hair or back of collar, pulling back to the hip, whilst the right hand delivers the inward block to the side of the now prone opponent's neck or elbow (which can end up locked against your neck as you pull)
Should I carry on? Has anyone alternatives to offer, I'd love to exchange or expand ideas for this or any other KKW pattern?
mjustus
White Belt
This is exactly the kind of thread I am looking for as well. I am an instructor and constantly get asked about what we are actually doing in our poomse. Does it all mean something and so on? Being the instructor they look to me for the answers and I hate that I don't have the answers to give them. Is there some sort of official "this is that and that is this" for each movement in the kkw forms? I don't want to just guess and give the students bad information is the right information is out there. If it is a open to interpretation kind of thing then I can do that as well, but again, would loe a thread devoted to this where we can all collaborate to find the best answers. New to the site, btw. Thanks for reading.
The official KKW position is that there is no bunkai in the poomsae.
On the other hand, can you really not come up with at least a few examples of how each and every movement or combination can be used in a real life situation?
A "low block", for example, can be used to deflect attacks from the ribs on down. It could also be a hammerfist to the groin. Or...
On the other hand, can you really not come up with at least a few examples of how each and every movement or combination can be used in a real life situation?
A "low block", for example, can be used to deflect attacks from the ribs on down. It could also be a hammerfist to the groin. Or...
You will never find an official sanction interpretation from KKW the Dart Fish DVD's of the PoomSe's are the best quality productions of the forms ever made however they refuse to make new ones since they started the international master instructor license training and test outside Korea since they made many changes to the PoomSe's they don't want to give it to you in a dvd they want you to pay to attend a seminar. Back to the issue you go to the DVD section that says applications and it is the same old boring party line of kick punch block because they never knew it in the first place. You have to get with those of us who do seminars under George Dillman or Jack Hogan. Books are fine source of information I recommend Kyusho Jitsu The Dillman method of Pressure Point Fighting and Advanced pressure Point fighting for a very well rounded knowledge base of anatomy and applications but as always you cannot gain skill from a book you need hands on with a master in this the books will open your mind but hands on experience is a must. Also as in all MA there is much that is never printed and never exposed to the public. Knowledge is passed on by trust and loyalty. Having trained with the GM's and their prominent students I can tell you that all of them will demonstrate basic go to application but there can be as many as 12 or more variations to any single movement of a PoomSe and all of them will say what works is what matters these are suggestions you may find a particular variation that works better for you and all things change based on the situation and physiology of the person you are dealing with. Also there is a total difference of what works with a compliant partner compared to a person under actual duress that is why you need to transition quickly or apply in such a way the gives them no warning or is opposite of what they expect. In Hapkido or in this case a softening hit to put attention in another area or gain release in order to get to what you really want. Energetic applications or cross diuranal hence cross meridian activating 1-3 points with manipulation.
To those that say well I can bend or break a heavy bag so what? what happens when your 40 50 60 70 won't matter anymore what if your sick or tired gross motor skills combined with bonki applications will give you that edge and isn't more fun to teach and practice PoomSe when it becomes a real living thing able to protect yourself through the ages not a robotic Montra? Got to the seminars spend some money and time it will be worth it. The head of the AAU in SF. A professor and a great Jidokwan master openly teaches applications related to the PoomSe and is very open. Keep searching Keep learning no one has ownership of our hands and feet to say it is only this way or that in SD. Tradition Competition and Rank Advancement are all other issues that will not keep you warm at night or save you from harm when the chips are down.
mjustus
White Belt
I have no problem coming up with my own interpretation. I just didn't want to give my students wrong information if the "right" info was available. The school I work for has no clue about the forms' applications and they don't really seem to care since knowing wouldn't make them more money. But that's probably for a different kind of thread.
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There are no blocks all is offensive strikes Down Block in not the downward hand as the primary but the finish,the returning hand to chamber is the first action that is manipulating an extremity with one or more PP and the opposite hand or arm is a finish strike specifically to a point to finish and energetic move or cross diruranal cross meridian strike.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Wow. And all this time when someone tried to kick me or punch me and I blocked them I was doing a non existent technique? If what I used didn't exist I wonder what stopped them from making contact? MUst have been what I learned at some of those Dilman seminars where he was teaching the no contact stuff.
oops
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That's not true. That whole paragraph is fiction. The Dartfish DVD set is not the most current official Kukkiwon DVD set, nor is it "the best quality." The set was produced in 2003.The so called "many changes" to poomsae is a popular myth spread by the uninformed. Current Kukkiwon poomsae has had very liitle changes since it was created in 1972.
Here are some good sources:
1. The Explanation of Official Taekwondo Poomsae – by Ik-Pil, Kang. This is an excellent
book on modern Kukkiwon poomsae. It’s more detailed than the official Kukkiwon text, which I
would also recommend. The author, GM Ik Pil Kang, 8th Dan, is vice chairman of the education
committee of the Kukkiwon. Price: $30
2. The Textbook of Taekwondo Poomsae – published by the Kukkiwon. This is a good
textbook, which accompanies the official Kukkiwon poomsae DVD set. It’S very close in design
and detail to GM Ik-Pil, Kang’s book. $37
3. What is Taekwondo Poomsae, by Kyu-Hyung Lee. This books comes with a DVD. The
author Kyu-Hyung Lee, 9th dan, is one of the world's pre-eminent poomsae teacherrs. He's
professor at Keimyung University in Korea and was head coach of the Korean national team. He was just named president of the Kukkiwon.
Video/DVD Resources:
1. Official Kukkiwon Poomsae, 6-DVD Set – produced by the Kukkiwon – This is the authority
and reference guide for Kukkiwon poomsae. Performers in the set, first produced in 2007, are all senior Kukkiwon
leaders and instructors. Price is about $120
2. There is a newer version of the Kukkiwon DVD set, compressed into only two DVDs and sells for about $20.
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SJON
Blue Belt
Here is an interesting article on this matter:
http://jungdokwan-taekwondo.blogspot.com.es/2013/10/bunkai-in-taekwondo.html
I do teach pattern application myself in quite some detail, though I consider it a complement to my "core style", which is mainly impact-based.
Best regards,
Simon
http://jungdokwan-taekwondo.blogspot.com.es/2013/10/bunkai-in-taekwondo.html
I do teach pattern application myself in quite some detail, though I consider it a complement to my "core style", which is mainly impact-based.
Best regards,
Simon
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