Changing Forms

[spinny]

We are in the process of changing all 16 of our schools over to them but I am having second thoughts for sure!!!

What system are you currently using? And why are you considering changing?

 

[Archtkd]

I asked this same question at a seminar last month given by two of the National poomsa coaches and their answer... they are just movements not ment to follow any theory.

Am I the only one deeply bothered by this? Two U.S. national poomsae coaches saying steps in any Taekwondo form are "just movements not ment (sic) to follow any theory"? I find that very hard to believe. If that was really said, I think we ought to demand the names of those national coaches and obtain more details about how they got appointed.

A while back when I was a white belt in a Kenyan dojang my first sabumnin taught us that every poomsae step represents a solid Taekwondo defensive or offensive movement, meant to repel, strike or avoid one or multiple attackers. To this day I try my best to follow that simple guidance when practicing poomsae. Any good reference material, the official Kukkiwon poomsae DVD set, for example, also shows practical self defense uses for forms.

That said, I believe a properly executed reverse outside inside middle block, made from a walking stance -- as done in Poom 7 and 9 in Taeguk Il Jang-- works just the same as a regular middle block from a walking stance. It all depends on the distance and angle of the attacker. Proper execution is the key word.

 

[xfighter88]

I think you've touched on my pet peeve with forms training. If you train them solely as movements, it makes much more sense to break up the form entirely and just practice the basics in short combinations singly and with a partner. Why? Because the turns and retracting arm have no practical use in the philosophy you describe from the National coaches and they just add needless frou-frou to learn and practice.

Now if you inject classical theory into the pattern, the block with the rear hand makes a lot of more sense if it is interpreted as a trap or grab with the retracting arm and then an inside hammer fist to disarm or punish the attacker.

I trained with a guy years ago who held that all blocks can be traps and breaks. Whether it's true or not it makes me feel alot better about all that crossing arms and hand to your hip stuff.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Am I the only one deeply bothered by this? Two U.S. national poomsae coaches saying steps in any Taekwondo form are "just movements not ment (sic) to follow any theory"? I find that very hard to believe. If that was really said, I think we ought to demand the names of those national coaches and obtain more details about how they got appointed.

I picked up on that myself and was waiting to see what other responses that statement might trigger. Such a response would be outrageous.

 

[chungdokwan123]

OK without going threw the debate of were they came from, how long they have been around, and what they were developed for can someone please answer me this question about the Tae Guek forms.... why would you do forms were the theory just dosnt make any sense at all?

Indeed....why would people do forms where the theory doesn't make sense? Considering the number of schools doing the Taeguk forms, you answer your own question. Simply because you don't yet fully understand them doesn't mean they are nonsensical or have no practical application.

While you didn't say so I have to assume you have been learning the Palgwe forms. My take on the difference is that, in general, the Taeguk poomse, while very similar, are shorter and more to the point. Perhaps faster mastery of technique is the reason for the substitution?

I can say this.....I love poomse.....all of them. The Palgwe poomse are beautiful to watch, as are the Taeguk. I wish to learn the Palgwe forms as well.

I'd also say that you should objectively learn Taeguk but continue to practice Palgwe as well. You'll be all the richer for it.

Anybody else agree with that sentiment?

 

[bluekey88]

Sadly, some folks who jsut focus on strictly competition to the exclusion of all else feel this way (or they only do poomse enough to satisfy comeptition requierements to focus onsparring). That's certainly not what I advocate in my training or with my students.

I truly beleive and practice the applications within the moves of poomse. It's very rewarding, and has enhanced my ability to perfrom the poomse.

Peace,
Erik

 

[MSUTKD]

I think we ought to demand the names of those national coaches and obtain more details about how they got appointed.

Well, before you start lynching people who do not know about poomsae you might want to look in the mirror. One of the first questions I ask people in my seminars on poomsae is, “What does the word poomsae mean”? ; Most of the time I get the wonderful standard, “FORMS” or no answer because most aren’t really sure. I am not saying this to be snippy but rather to make a point; that I hear lots of people talking about stuff they really do not know much about. It is not because they are dumb but rather due to the fact that they have not been taught by someone who does know. I am sad that this kind of information, and other very important poomsae ideas, is being lost, while people try to make a middle block into a “death strike” because they know there must be a secret there. The real secret is that your training is incomplete. (Not you Arch, people in general)

Here is the definition, so you can be educated, from a paper that I wrote on why martial arts people NEED to study Chinese Characters:

品勢​

Poomsae or Poomse​

In Korean martial arts, specifically Taekwondo, the modern term for forms is (品勢).
It is composed of two characters (品) and (勢). The first character (品) contains
three occurrences of the radical (口), mouth. This is interpreted as a collection of
objects or articles. The second character (勢) is composed of two radicals (埶),
mound of earth worked or cultivating, and (力), strength. The combination is
cultivating strength. Together the word means articles for cultivating strength.​

 

[Archtkd]

Well, before you start lynching people who do not know about poomsae you might want to look in the mirror. One of the first questions I ask people in my seminars on poomsae is, “What does the word poomsae mean”?.[/center]

Thanks for your kind post. The "lynching" was tongue in cheek.

Seriously, though, I just found it very hard to believe national Poomsae coaches -- who I assume are usually very proficient instructors -- would say what was alleged. I even wonder whether something wasn't lost in explanations or translations.

My experience has been that serious Poomsae training for regular Taekwondo practice is extremely challenging and has many layers. I am so far from near perftect. No matter how many times I practice Poomsae, there's always something new to learn and correct, especially when one I'm lucky to find a good teacher.

 

[Miles]

Having had the tremendous opportunity to train with Master Southwick (just this past weekend in fact, along with fellow MT'r Master Wright, who celebrated his 50th birthday by driving 200 miles into a foreign country for the same opportunity), I am sure that he would not let any Natl level coach persist in such ignorance. And I am sure that he would educate said coach in a very congenial manner.

As far as the OP is concerned, I made the conscious decision to move away from the Palgwe series and teach only the Taeguek series. My decision was based on the fact that the Kukkiwon only recognizes the latter (though USAT allows both in competition). I also feel that the valuable lessons taught in the Palgwe series are also found in the Taeguek series though the opposite is not always true (am thinking off the top of my head about the balance needed in TG4 for kicking and returning the kick into the same stance). Finally, I only have a certain amount of time to devote to maintaining my limited competence and felt that by having to do both sets took away from other areas in which I need practice.

 

[dancingalone]

Good post, Miles. I myself am a minimalist these days, believing the quantity of forms should be greatly lessened for most students. The remaining patterns should be disassembled and reassembled in much greater detail and studied and practiced individually and with a partner. This is the path to mastery, rather than attempting to practice multiple sets of forms.

 

[dortiz]

"The remaining patterns should be disassembled and reassembled in much greater detail and studied and practiced individually and with a partner."

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo Jutsu


Dave O.​

 

[dancingalone]

"The remaining patterns should be disassembled and reassembled in much greater detail and studied and practiced individually and with a partner."

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo Jutsu

Dave O.​

I don't follow McCarthy Sensei's teachings myself, but I respect his training methodology. Some people speak dismissively of him, but I'm certainly not one of them.