Systema or Krav Maga ?

[Klondike93]

I've read those bull crap posts and all I found them was ignorant and un-informed. So if your just going to sit there and say the same junk then yes you are ignorant too. I would not sit here and trash the "art" you do with out experiencing it first so why do you?

 

[Doc_Jude]

I've read those bull crap posts and all I found them was ignorant and un-informed. So if your just going to sit there and say the same junk then yes you are ignorant too. I would not sit here and trash the "art" you do with out experiencing it first so why do you?

Please. With all of the cah-rap vids on YouTube and the Russian No-touch Knockout B.S., I wouldn't waste my time or money on such an art. Kinda like
Yanagi Ryuken , (part 2)
or George Dillman, (part 2)
& here's some Systema & here's Another

If this is what Sytema is, it will never make any of my money, and unless you want to live up to P.T. Barnum's estimations of sucker population growth, you'll run away from anything Systema as fast as you can.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Russian No-touch knockouts is not Systema it is a system by a man named Starov. I know very little about it, I have seen the youtube vids and do not care for them either. It has nothing to do with Systema as taught by Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev. I assure you there is more contact to be found in Systema than an Internet warrior would be comfortable with.....heck there is more contact than the vast amount of martial arts are comfortable with.

The problem with making your mind up and shooting your mouth off based solely on youtube and the Internet is the research is always lacking, generally confusing and mostly wrong. The advantage is you can hide, hide, hide.

Mark Jakabcsin

 

[Doc_Jude]

If I scrapped with Martin Wheeler, I wouldn't be dealing with a Systema guy, I'd be fighting a Judoka/Muay Thai&Western Boxer/Kempo Man/Doorman/Eskrimador/Systema guy. The best Systema guys have years of experience in other arts and are just applying some flow to their preponderance of martial knowledge from other arts. Anyone with half a brain knows this.
& don't worry about me. The years of Small-Circle JJ, over a decade of BBT, & my current training with a near 60yo Dutch-Indo Silat master has got my hands full, plus I'm getting back into eskrima. I could care less about Teh SYST3M. & if all of these vids on YouTube are such crap, then why are they being used to push the art? Why are the best of the best in Systema performing such atrocities on seminar videos? No one's getting fleeced 'round here, man.

 

[howard]

Please. With all of the cah-rap vids on YouTube and the Russian No-touch Knockout B.S., I wouldn't waste my time or money on such an art. Kinda like
Yanagi Ryuken ...

To be sure that nobody is misled, I'd just like to point out that this man has no connection with the Yanagi-ryu Aiki Bugei of Don Angier sensei.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

To the forum at large. Awhile back the topic of Systema and it's training methods came up on the Self Defense forum. I wrote out several posts outlining some of the drills that are done during normal Systema training. Keep in mind the posters on that forum had some specific questions hence the drills outlined reflect those questions and in no way encompass the totality of Systema training. Heck what I outlined is a tiny, tiny portion.

You can find that thread here:
http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13911

My first post is #10 but the first post describing drills is #12. There is a good bit to sink your teath into.

Take care,

Mark J.

 

[Doc_Jude]

"Systema Art - Silat from Russia"
HAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!

NOT. Woo-woo, big time.

 

[towknee]

Ummm.....perhaps we are overlooking for a moment that any system out there has practioners who do that system a dis-service.
You are the fundamental part that will make any system work. You are the part that defines fight or flight.
Maybe we could lighten up a bit here??
I have direct experience doing karate since the 1970s. (Yes, old guy) I participated in Systema stuff beginning last December. I learned stuff. What could be wrong with that?
I said previously, and repeat myself here, go try them. They have a lot to offer. Don't moan about the dummy stuff. Share the good stuff.
I had to learn several BB techniques for my belt test that I simply don't have any intention of ever attempting in a H2H situation. That doesn't negate the other stuff that I learned that is very applicable.

Jeezzz......

 

[Doc_Jude]

Ummm.....perhaps we are overlooking for a moment that any system out there has practioners who do that system a dis-service.

You're right of course, but it's strange when the primary source for the art is the guy in the video doing all of the woo-woo stuff. He'd do the art a service demonstrating such things on fighters unrelated to Systema instead of his loyal students. Anyone that falls for such silly no-touch chi games should have their head examined.

At least Krav Maga's Imi Lichtenfeld was honest about where it came from. This completely unverified Systema history sounds even worse than Takamatsuden lineage.

 

[towknee]

Ahh..yes. You are correct. Essentially you are saying the test is where the rubber meets the road. Fighting.
They do their video examples w/pre-determined results. Marketing.
Excellent point. Of course, everyone does this in their informational videos.

After years in a karate environment I have participated recently in a systema environment and learned a lot because the mind-set was very different. This is a good thing. I am learning to counter an opponent who approaches the fight context differently than traditional martial artists in my experience.

Fighting is a practical kind of thing that really does require regular real hands-on practice. If you can do it with folks of different systems and approaches you are the better for it. These guys would fight w/me and it was fun.

However, I have yet to see a systema guy in the local competitions. Per your point, this would be the proof of the pudding.

I don't do sport events because I have long ago quit participating in "points" style interactions. It doesn't meet my limited concept of "practical". The opponents get points and "beat" me based upon a judge's decison that waving their fist somewhere in the vicinity of my head constitutes a knock-out. Or they kick me in the body and I'm supposed to be beaten when in fact they couldn't kick dew off a plant or we are jammed and the kick is ineffective, etc. etc.
Bah. Hum-bug. (Regardless, I actually support competions as a great training environment. Especially for beginners who need to defeat public shyness.)

So your issue about the videos rings true for me. I want the various techniques they have that I think will add to my learning but I don't lose a lot of sleep over the apparent lack of practical nature of their approach. This is because I have learned techniques for belt ranks that I think are more for demonstration or training than on deck get-mud-in-your-eye fighting.

Also, as I mentioned, the systema and KM training programs offer good physical fitness. I think this is a worthwhile point. I do some of the systema and KM physical exercises because I think they help me maintain physical conditioning.

It is a fun topic.
thanks.

luck.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

He'd do the art a service demonstrating such things on fighters unrelated to Systema instead of his loyal students.

You make assumptions that everyone in this video clip is a loyal student. Assumptions are bad and they are not, or were not at the time of the different filmings. I count at least 4 of the guys in the clips that were not students. Many were but not all. Although if you met the loyal students I am betting you would have a hard time working with most if not all of the guys in the clips as many of them are very good. Secondly there are clips of Mikhail working with different fighters available you just have to look.....and not assume that everyone in every clip is a loyal student.

At least Krav Maga's Imi Lichtenfeld was honest about where it came from. This completely unverified Systema history sounds even worse than Takamatsuden lineage.

Well the United Nations must disagree with you on the unverified history as they had Vladimir and Mikhail demonstrate in October 2007 at their anniversary event. Perhaps more bad assumptions on your part?

You also imply that the clip is the totality of what Systema has to offer, it does not even scratch the surface. Several of these clips were done at the last AikiExpo or immediately following that event. Hence, in many of these clips Mikhail is demonstrating his version or understanding of Aikido, aiki and it's principles.

If you read the link I provided to the Self Defense forum you will get a small insight into the training method used to learn striking and strike adsorption. Perhaps you already do this kind of training. In my experience I have not seen other arts using a similar training method. But you won't get any of this from watching video and making assumptions.

Towknee wrote:

They do their video examples w/pre-determined results. Marketing.
Excellent point. Of course, everyone does this in their informational videos.

I am not totally sure I understand you here. None of the videos are pre-determined. The attackers simple attack and Mikhail moves. There is no rehearsal or understanding before hand as to the final result.

Now if you mean the individual clips are selected from the raw footage for specific reasons.....well of course. None of the individual clips are pre-determined but the overall montage of a video is for a specific purpose. As you said everyone does this, otherwise videos would have little or no meaning.

Take care,

Mark J.

 

[searcher]

"Systema Art - Silat from Russia"

I am not taking sides here or anything so don't think that I am.

That being said, is there a better demonstration of Systema then what is shown in the video above? If I were to base my knowledge of Systema off of this video then I would not want to study it. I find the demonstration of the techniques in this to be on par with Dillman and Ken Furuya. I am hoping that this is not the case.


BTW-can we move this to the Horror section or someplace else that is better for the discussion that is now going on?

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

For video I would recommend Vladimir's site. The link below is to his video section:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=clips

Personally I am not a big fan of video as I find it a poor subsitute for actually doing the work first hand. On second thought there IS NO substitute for first hand experience. I know from my personal experiences many things I saw on video or in person that I thought looked, should we say strange, took on a whole new meaning when I put my own body into action and actually had the experience. Although this does not hold true with many arts or individuals as I have shrugged my shoulders many times and said, yeah, whatever. But at least when I did that I had taken the time and effort to do real first hand research.

If you want to move this thread or this portion of the thread it should probably go into the Russian martial art section of this forum.

Take care,

Mark J.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Well the United Nations must disagree with you on the unverified history as they had Vladimir and Mikhail demonstrate in October 2007 at their anniversary event. Perhaps more bad assumptions on your part?

Yes, & Hatsumi's a Japanese national treasure, he's knighted in a few countries, and honorary Texas Ranger, etc. A demo in front of some dignitaries that know less about Systema than my 2yo isn't an official endorsement from the UN. Get off it.

I'll see about reviewing some Systema vids, official vids from Vladimir V. in the next few weeks. We'll see if they differ much from the BS on YouTube.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Oh, thanks for the link. That "Season's Greetings" vid is a great endorsement of Systema. "Someone tries to kick me, I'm gonna slit their throat!" Great.

 

[searcher]

Thanks for the link Mark J. I will review some of the videos and draw a little better picture. I will discuss the videos with my instructors and BBs to see what they think also.

 

[towknee]

Mark J wrote: I am not totally sure I understand you here. None of the videos are pre-determined. The attackers simple attack and Mikhail moves. There is no rehearsal or understanding before hand as to the final result.

Now if you mean the individual clips are selected from the raw footage for specific reasons.....well of course. None of the individual clips are pre-determined but the overall montage of a video is for a specific purpose. As you said everyone does this, otherwise videos would have little or no meaning.

Sorry for confusing post. I was agreeing w/earlier post that videos can be mis-leading.
I also posted earlier that both systems train to excellent fitness levels.

I have borrowed Systema videos and watched them several times. If they were foolish marketing things I wouldn't have wasted the time. Sorry to have inferred they were sub-standard or what-ever.
I have practiced with some local Systema guys last year. Excellent stuff. I think the strike absorbation/avoidance stuff is something other systems could add as a standard practice and this is one part I have taken from the actual practice.
Again, it would be interesting to see them compete against other systems. However, having said that, I played w/them and I'm from another system (karate) and I got clocked pretty regularly. Also, I have lost interest in the "fight for points" aspect so I'm not competing either and it becomes a moot point.

thanks.
luck

 

[Brian King]

First, my apologies to getting to this thread so late in the discussion, I have only slightly been following the thread as I thought the OP’s question to explain the differences between two arts as too general of a question, one that would require much time to answer completely and honestly. Time is a very scare and so very valuable to me right now plus I foresaw the thread turning into a art verse art thread, and very few threads can waste more time than those type while accomplishing nothing or less.

I have a little time tonight, so am going to use it to catch up so again my apologies for my lateness and the length of this post that my tardiness has caused.

Mark Jakabcsin wrote:

“Sorry but arts are not street-effective. People are or are not street effective. At the moment of truth it is only you; no rank, no belt, no trophy, no dojo technique, no head gear, no gloves, nothing but you.

How will you handle the pressure at that moment? How will you handle the fear at that moment? When you look inside your attacker's eyes and see his intent to cause you great harm, how will react? What will be YOUR emotion and response to his intent? During training your art may or may not tell you it's version of the ideal response is but at that moment none of that will matter.....as it will be only you. You can have all of the technique and ability in the world but it can all be for not at that moment of truth if the answers to the questions above are not positive.

How does each art prepare the individual to study these questions? How does the art challenge each student to study fear, if at all? How does each art prepare the student for the emotional stress at the moment of truth?”

Mark +1 on this post above. All very interesting and necessary questions every person should address in their training. I sincerely believe that so much of the damage we see in people that have survived violence but have such a hard time adjusting afterwards could have been avoided had they prepared themselves not only for the instant of combat but for the moments and lifetime that follows.

Klondike 93 wrote:

“One can only hope that ignorant Doc_ person listens to your advice”

Chuck, when a poodle comes into your yard and lives a pile of poop, it is not necessary to step into it and then spread it around. LOL advice I have to admit failing to follow both online and in city parks on different occasions.

I hope that we can get together some time this year and once again train. Happy New Year my friend!

Mark Jakabcsin wrote:

“To the forum at large. Awhile back the topic of Systema and it's training methods came up on the Self Defense forum. I wrote out several posts outlining some of the drills that are done during normal Systema training. Keep in mind the posters on that forum had some specific questions hence the drills outlined reflect those questions and in no way encompass the totality of Systema training. Heck what I outlined is a tiny, tiny portion.

You can find that thread here:
http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13911 ”

Mark, I do not know how you do it. I absolutely hate trying to write out drills. There is so much that a person can be learning from a drill, that to attempt to write it all is so daunting to me. Thanks for taking the time to spell out a few drills with so much detail in that other forums thread. It amuses me how some people need to be spoon feed the details and objectives rather than explore the drills for themselves and experiencing what they need to learn, they instead lazily lean on and require somebody to explain what they might be learning and in doing so put themselves into a box of limited training expectations. To help my students gain the ability to explore the various drills more fully I often have the students start the drill and go thru a rotation so everyone gets a chance to do the drill with very limited explanation or direction, then we talk about it very briefly and I have the students talk about what they were exploring or discovering then we run through the drill again but I often ask the students to explore a different aspect of the drill than they explored on the first run though. It has been interesting the results.

Oops, sorry about the thread drift. Back to the thread.

Searcher wrote:

“If I were to base my knowledge of Systema off of this video then I would not want to study it.”

I will address this, but I first have to also say that I am on dial-up and do not get to often watch video clips on the internet, so will not try to address what you may or may not be seeing. That said, Searcher I think that if you were to base your decision on studying an art or not pursuing an art (any martial art) from a single clip or even from multiple video clips and were satisfied with that level of experience then I would have to say you would be either lazy or stupid or both (and I do not think you are either) Searcher, besides watching videos I also agree with what you wrote prior in this thread “go to the schools you are looking at and watch some classes”and in my opinion even better than merely watching a class, and unlike others in this thread that come up with excuses not to train first hand and experience the art, I rather have to strongly agree with what Mark Jakabcsin wrote above “Honest assessments are done in person, with sweat and bruises.” Getting off the bench along the wall and training with the practitioners is essential in my making a decision on where to spend my training time and energy. Personally I base my knowledge on martial arts on several criteria, the major being actual time training in the art. I also research what the practitioners are writing and saying both on public forums and in personal one on one conversations. Videos and second hand conversations actually have very little value in my own evaluations and experiences. YMMV of course.

Doc Jude wrote:

Oh, thanks for the link. That "Season's Greetings" vid is a great endorsement of Systema. "Someone tries to kick me, I'm gonna slit their throat!" Great.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but judging from your other sophomoric postings on this thread and elsewhere on martial talk I can guess, so I will address this post but mostly your prior posts in this thread with the same logic and well thought out reasoning standard you have worked so hard to set. My dad can beat up your dad.


As to the video and all things, context is king. I do not even have to see the video in question and have not but can guess at the contents by Doc Judes comment above. I am guessing that it shows partners doing the work and one is kicking and one is armed with a blade?

All partner drills and exercises should be designed and practiced so that both partners learn multiple lessons from the experience. Not all blade work is dueling and most fights are not fair. It is important to experience attacking while unarmed somebody that is armed as well as having somebody attack you while you are armed and they are unarmed. The context for those that need spoon feeding might be multiple opponents armed or not, combat while injured or ill, or professional work. For example if you try to kick at me in my home while one of your buddies is in another room with one of my family members yup you might well end up with an additional smile and body openings. Besides the obvious practice of kicking/striking and blade work, in my own training when working against/with a bladed partner I study how the knife may change their tensions and attitudes, I study how it effects their movement as compared to how they do the work empty handed, at the same time I also study and monitor how their having a blade affects my own tensions attitude and movements. When training while armed (no matter the tool) against those that appear to be unarmed I also monitor and try to recognize our various tensions, attitudes and movements. It is in my opinion important to become comfortable working both with weapons and unarmed against both armed and unarmed partners. Often people become tool orientated and fixated. The tool becomes the answer for all when in fact it may not be the answer at all. Common sense and experience tells me that while training we should try to experience as many different situations and circumstances as possible and by this method improve our chances of survival when doing the work.

Searcher wrote;

“I will review some of the videos and draw a little better picture”

If I remember right they had one up called blade control or something like that? It showed Vladimir and Ian doing a little blade work after one of the classes. That was an interesting and entertaining clip that I enjoyed. I do not remember what other clips might be up there LOL as I said above…dial up. I see that you are in Kansas and FYI I have been down there to train a few times in the last couple of years and have some friends out that way that also train in Systema. If you would like some contact information, PM me.

Towknee, thanks for clearing up the pre-determined comment as it confused me as well. Enjoy your training.

For those whose religion follows the Julian calendar, Merry Christmas. I was able to attend a wonderful service today (Sunday the sixth) that included both snow and sunshine, just a perfect ending for the nativity season.
Warmest regards
Brian King

 

[Doc_Jude]

& yet another Systema fan rushes to defend the woo-woo. I'm not surprised, though, the "comrade"-ery is to be expected. Hyuk-hyuk-hyuk.

 

[searcher]

Brian, thanks for the invite to train with your friends. I will keep you in mind. I am always eager for experience in a style I have little or no knowledge of. I always like to draw my conclusions based on first hand experience, probably the reason for training in many different styles.