OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
I agree
Systema a discussion
- Thread starter Gweilo
- Start date
I agree
_Simon_
Senior Master
Really cool, I love how fluid and unmechanical it is. Would love to explore this sort of movement in a martial arts context.
And oh the music made it great XD
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
Is systema not available where you are, if not I will put some videos up on the basics, the free movement comes from dropping tension in the parts of the body, where its not required, a rather random explination would be, can you sit up as fast when consious, as oppossed to when you have a nightmare, the answer would be no, because your body moves far faster and better when you are relaxed, with learning to use parts of the body independantly, i.e moving the fist and shoulder in unconnected movement, like patting your head whilst rubbing your stomach at the same time, or rotating your left arm clockwise, whilst rotating your right anti clockwise, with the 1st finger pointing towards each other, at first it seems difficult, but after time, it becomes 2nd nature.
Headhunter
Senior Master
That’s my main issue with what I’ve seen with systema....you’re never going to be relaxed with no tension in a real fight...I don’t care who you are or how zen you are. You will always be full of adrenaline and fear in a real situation which is hard to control especially if you don’t prepare for it. I mean it’s a great think for self help and relaxation and to get rid of stress no arguments about that. But when you are in an alley and a pissed off drunk or high guy comes at you screaming and throwing insults and swearing then starts swinging at you I 100% guarantee you will not relaxed and loose So yes you can train in the gym about to relax and flow that’s great I practice like that at times but in a real situation your body is not going to stay like. The biology doesn’t Work like that. Again I’m not criticising it as a form of self health but any systema guy I see moving...I just don’t see it working that way. Maybe I’m wrong but I’ve never seen a single fight won like that.
I know there’s guys in the ring who are loose...Ali, Anderson silva etc and yeah but the difference is those guys have had 8 week training camps focusing on that one opponent. They know what’s going to happen, they know they’re going to fight. They have time to get the sparring in and be in the perfect health for it.
but in the street. There’s no training camp no preparation no time to warm up and get loose. Usually thr first thing you know is some angry guy in your face screaming at you or attacking or pulling a weapon on you and that’s where the looseness won’t work. You will not be relaxed you will be scared and tense because you’re not expecting it.
also please know I mean no disrespect these are just my personal opinions. I very much could be wrong And I am always willing to be proved wrong and I am not hating on what you are doing. You do what’s good for you at least you’re out there practicing and doing something and I respect anyone for that no matter what they train and whatever my thoughts on it are. I have my ways you have yours. There’s no right or wrong to it it’s preference. I prefer harder resistance stuff but that’s me...I’m not a loose guy I mean I could probably do with relaxation stuff not just for MA but just life in general and hey if there was a place doing free classes in my area maybe I would spend some time trying but as it is it’s just not something I’m willing to pay money to do. No hate on it. It’s what you like and you have your right to like it. My post is not meant to trash talk what you do just sharing an opinion and willing to have a friendly discussion on the matter
Last edited:
_Simon_
Senior Master
Nah the closest is an hour away, but I'm more into other arts, but I do find Systema's training methodology fascinating for sure. Ah thanks!
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
This may be your opinion, but it is easier than you think, but not easy, if that makes sence. Top athletes do it, former world/olympic champion, and multi world record holder Micheal Johnson has an elite school, which breaks the race down into phases, knowing when to apply power in motion, and when to relax etc. Elite military units do it, being more relaxed means you do not stop, mentally and phyically.
As a trained martial artist, I am suprised you fear such a senario, someone coming at you in a confined space, whos equilibrium is probably shot, who cannot think clearly or calmly, and in a confined space, and you question my training, the same with your comment about someone getting up close to your face and shouting, why would you let them get that close? It sounds as if your beleif in your ability, to deal with high pressure situations makes you stop, it sounds like you stop moving, and start panicking.
Your quote here is in line with your thinking, in mma you train for a specific opponent, a fighter or his team would have studied their opponent, and pretty much tailor the training for that fight, as you put it, when the events are a surprise, or unpredictable, sometimes superior speed, strength, technique is not appropriate or useful, and the only way to combat that, is with adaptive fluid movement, and that cannot happen when you are full of tension, try a roundhouse kick when all your leg muscles are tensed. Most fights that I have had on the streets, do tend to happen when alcohol and young men mix, most of my fights I won with very little ma skill, move out of the way, or block/parry an incoming strike, and a couple of good smacks job done.
I welcome your questions/points of view on systema, it does not fit totally with other arts, but has similarities to other arts, the hardest thing for me,nwas fully understanding and experiencing the no tension part, of course no tension does not mean all floppy, it means having the tension only when and where needed, but when I experienced it, sporradically at first, it was a lightbulb moment for me, through training, understanding what and where tension was in my body, how I felt inside, it takes time, but as with other skills, you can see tension in others, and being fluid in motion helps to adapt and counter. In training we are always testing through applying stress, be it a push up, sparring for play or pressure testing, but not for added resitance, but to see where tension is occuring, and releasing it, this helps us spot tension in opponents, which does 2 things, it can reveal the intended strike at its earliest stages, or it gives us a target to counterattack, with fluid movement, and our strikes discuised in our movement, makes defending our counterattacks very difficult to respond to.
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
In a recent zoom class, a question was asked of our head instructor and former Russian special forces operative Vladamir Vasiliev, and thought I would share his answer.
The question was, 'Without belts and competitions, how do we measure our progress in Systema?'
Systema is very broad in scope. As its name suggests it is a Systemic approach to self actualisation, to 'know thyself'
Vladimir's answer was typically insightful:
There are several measures...
You should start notice that you are becoming more relaxed in various situations.
You should notice yourself becoming more good natured.
More positive.
On a physical level you should be starting to move more easily.
People in their 50's and 60's often comment that they can move better than they did in their 20's.
Not just because they are fitter, but because their understanding of movement itself is improving.
They finally start to realise how the body should function:
When you walk.
When you sit down or stand up.
When you are surprised.
When you are hurt.
When you have to do something that you don't want to do.
When you are confronted with your own stress or emotional response to a situation.
We can all act well or badly in these situations and Systema builds your acuity and sensitivity to your actions and responses and shares the tools to improve.
How to move from relaxation.
How to get out of your own way.
You can move lightly, softly even with injury.
You also become more intuitive and sensitive.
You listen and communicate differently.
One example is that when listening to headphones you relax and allow the sound into your body.
When talking with someone you sense when you are at the correct distance that they can optimally 'receive' what you are saying. You don't dominate.
The beauty of Systema is that you can measure your progress and continue your training in almost any moment.
In your interactions with others.
Just to remind, we do spar to pressure test.
The question was, 'Without belts and competitions, how do we measure our progress in Systema?'
Systema is very broad in scope. As its name suggests it is a Systemic approach to self actualisation, to 'know thyself'
Vladimir's answer was typically insightful:
There are several measures...
You should start notice that you are becoming more relaxed in various situations.
You should notice yourself becoming more good natured.
More positive.
On a physical level you should be starting to move more easily.
People in their 50's and 60's often comment that they can move better than they did in their 20's.
Not just because they are fitter, but because their understanding of movement itself is improving.
They finally start to realise how the body should function:
When you walk.
When you sit down or stand up.
When you are surprised.
When you are hurt.
When you have to do something that you don't want to do.
When you are confronted with your own stress or emotional response to a situation.
We can all act well or badly in these situations and Systema builds your acuity and sensitivity to your actions and responses and shares the tools to improve.
How to move from relaxation.
How to get out of your own way.
You can move lightly, softly even with injury.
You also become more intuitive and sensitive.
You listen and communicate differently.
One example is that when listening to headphones you relax and allow the sound into your body.
When talking with someone you sense when you are at the correct distance that they can optimally 'receive' what you are saying. You don't dominate.
The beauty of Systema is that you can measure your progress and continue your training in almost any moment.
In your interactions with others.
Just to remind, we do spar to pressure test.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Is there any video of sparring?
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
In systema, sparring is closed door, it is filmed, but needs everyones approval to publish, most videos are for training purposes, we have no competition or sports element, in your world, your teacher fought in a ring, my teacher fought in wars or hostage recovery situations, or counter terroism situations, both real to an extent, so what water divining, results based, completely left field, unrelated tosh, are you about to post now?
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
No, but willing to share my knowledge with you,mif we meet later this year
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think the water divining analogy would be that, in Drop Bear's world, his instructor fought in a ring, and Drop Bear can also fight in a ring, along with most or all of his training partners. In your world, your instructor did some things you'll never do.
So, in Drop Bear's world, his instructor is passing along skills combined with the benefits of his experience. Drop Bear can develop learn the skills while also accumulating his own experience in context. You aren't learning to fight in a war or become a hostage negotiator, or a counter terrorism operative. Regardless of what your instructor has done, what are you learning to do? I
Disclaimer: The above statement is common sense. It is obvious to
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You okay, big guy? You're responding to the same post multiple times.
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
I can agree with your statement, just been debating with DB far longer, yes its true, not fighting in a war, and I do revert to a more aggresive pattern, which shows I still have a lot to learn, with regards to systema, there is a lot db states has real merit, but more often than not his ? Is followed by a random video of a boy scout tying his toggle, that somehow relatesvto wrist locks.
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
A side effect of debating with Db, sorry
Headhunter
Senior Master
Fighting in wars doesn’t automatically make you a good fighter...yes being a soldier is a very brave and noble and tough thing to do and I take nothing away from it and yes some qualities of a soldier absolutely transfer over to fighting. Hard work, determination, aggression, strength and fitness. But I’ve spoken to numerous people who have served in the army and you get taught very little hand to hand combat as well you’ve got a gun and so does the opposition.
it’s like when boxers or MMA fighters come out and say I’m going to win because I was a soldier....well no not really....I mean yeah they’re tough as nails but it doesn’t mean they’re better at unarmed hand to hand combat than anyone else who trains regularly.
OP
OP
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
Today I learnt, (many thanks, steve), not to let someone get under my skin, even virtually.
