Systema a discussion

[Headhunter]

My biggest takeaway from a systema class I did was that instructor couldn’t even defend a half hearted front kick.

guy asked me to kick him so he could show a move. So I threw a basic front kick. I didn’t throw it full speed and power but I threw it properly at him as that’s how I’ve been taught to attack in demonstrations and the kick landed before he even moved, he told me to do it again so I did same result. Then he told me I was being difficult....well I wasn’t I threw a kick as he asked but I did it again and threw it as slow and weak as I could now because frankly I was embarrassed for the guy so I did it and he caught my leg then then was trying to push it and pull it but it didn’t have any affect on me at all. I wasn’t resisting it but I wasn’t just going to flop down like a dead fish either. In the end he just told me to get back in line and got someone else to demo and funnily enough that guy did flop like a fish....needless to say I never went back

 

[Gweilo]

You really think they don’t know that? Every fighter knows they can be beaten as there’s very very few are undefeated.

as for evolving....well frankly MMA is much more likely to evolve than most traditional styles. I’m no MMA fanboy I’ll say this. You take your average MMA guy or boxer or Muay Thai fighter and put him against your average systema guy, the MMA/boxer/ Muay Thai will win for the majority. Of course there will be exceptions but that’s my take

A point well made, but I am flabergasted, how you came to that conclusion, when you only trained in systema for a couple of hours, its like me taking 4 tkd classes and saying, it has no merit

 

[Gweilo]

My biggest takeaway from a systema class I did was that instructor couldn’t even defend a half hearted front kick.

Forvthat I am sorry, you went to the wrong class

 

[Headhunter]

Forvthat I am sorry, you went to the wrong class

Oh that has happened with more than one systema person I know

 

[Headhunter]

A point well made, but I am flabergasted, how you came to that conclusion, when you only trained in systema for a couple of hours, its like me taking 4 tkd classes and saying, it has no merit

May not have trained it loads but I got that Conclusion because I have trained with people who’ve done it and have yet to see anyone who can actually hold their own in a fight Or a sparring match or anything using systema...when I find one that can I’ll let you know but hasn’t happened yet and any class I’ve taken has given me no indication to believe it either. I’ve been to 4 different systema clubs over the years in different countries and each one has been the same format a bunch of rolling around on the floor doing movements and some flow stuff where the partner flops to the floor if I touch his wrist with one finger

 

[Gweilo]

Me too, these names probably mean nothing to you, but I have sparred with Kevin Chan WC, Porl Stone TKD, Niall Adams Hapkido, and a host of Amerian based Hapkidoist, even been taken down b,y Wally Jay in a demonstration (fufing legend), I have been with far better MA,Than I could ever be, but that dont stop me trying,

 

[Gweilo]

May not have trained it loads but I got that Conclusion because I have trained with people who’ve done it and have yet to see anyone who can actually hold their own in a fight Or a sparring match or anything using systema...when I find one that can I’ll let you know but hasn’t happened yet and any class I’ve taken has given me no indication to believe it either. I’ve been to 4 different systema clubs over the years in different countries and each one has been the same format a bunch of rolling around on the floor doing movements and some flow stuff where the partner flops to the floor if I touch his wrist with one finger

So out of interest, would you name these systema people you trained with, or atleast name the city?

 

[Headhunter]

So out of interest, would you name these systema people you trained with, or atleast name the city?

No

 

[Gweilo]

 

[angelariz]

I have been attending Systema Seminars off and on for about 10 years. I love the grappling and striking power of the Systema players I have trained with. RI Systema is one of the schools sanctioned by Master Vasiliev. (I know they dont use titles but in my eyes he is a master of movement and self defense.

 

[angelariz]

One thing I don't agree with is the whole being relaxed when you strike thing. The theories good and fine for training but if I'm attacked late at night I am not going to be relaxed at all

If you arent trained (in the system) in getting your mind on task and staying relaxed in the pocket you wouldnt know how you would react.

 

[Gweilo]

Whilst there is misunderstanding of systema principles, especially the controlling fear, emotions, I invite to watch the following 2 videos, they are not systema training, but contain some of the principles in our training, the 2 words to remember are, recognising, and adapting, with experience of course.

 

[Gweilo]

This video is also very interesting.

 

[drop bear]

If you arent trained (in the system) in getting your mind on task and staying relaxed in the pocket you wouldnt know how you would react.

It took me about 5 years of hard core street fighting people to be relaxed when someone really wanted to hurt me.

And even then I had weird triggers that would set me off.

This was regardless of any training I did.

And basically I just got really good at pretending I wasn't terrified. Or just going for it when I was.

This training that people say does something has to result in an actual result. So you can't do amazing relaxed in the face of danger training and then never face danger and then claim the training works.

To make this claim you need a provable connection between the training and real incidents that link the training to a relaxed mindset during some sort of high risk struggle.

I think guys like the ice man have a method that at least works as much as it is specific. But a lot of systems never get further than some bold and unproven claims.

 

[drop bear]

This video is also very interesting.

That was terrible.

 

[Headhunter]

It took me about 5 years of hard core street fighting people to be relaxed when someone really wanted to hurt me.

And even then I had weird triggers that would set me off.

This was regardless of any training I did.

And basically I just got really good at pretending I wasn't terrified. Or just going for it when I was.

This training that people say does something has to result in an actual result. So you can't do amazing relaxed in the face of danger training and then never face danger and then claim the training works.

To make this claim you need a provable connection between the training and real incidents that link the training to a relaxed mindset during some sort of high risk struggle.

I think guys like the ice man have a method that at least works as much as it is specific. But a lot of systems never get further than some bold and unproven claims.

5 years of street fighting?......well as I said in a previous thread if someone is getting into multiple street fights regularly...then it’s usually that person that’s the problem

 

[drop bear]

5 years of street fighting?......well as I said in a previous thread if someone is getting into multiple street fights regularly...then it’s usually that person that’s the problem

It was 20 years. Just took me 5 to learn to relax.

And I did it because I needed the money.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway. The ice man has a method of mental control. The difference is he does what he says he can do.

Which is an important distinction.

 

[Gweilo]

That was terrible.

Yeah your right, it was. I think our idea or understanding of the concept being relaxed are not too far apart, but I think the concept of being tension free (relaxed), in Systema goes deeper than that of energy conservation of other arts and the mma training you talk about.
When you mentioned about someone who has had lots of fights on the street being the problem, I agree, this person will have developed a skill set that is based on experiences that are flawed, ascwe do not know the calibre of their opponents, and confidence and belief in ones ability can be dictated by ones ego. 5 years to become relaxed in a gym sense is about the average from my own experience, and that of others I speak too, but are you more relaxed because of experience, or are you truely able to relax enough to adapt to the unexpected, and execute your reply effectively, becuse the relaxed state we strive for in Systema is mental, as well as physical, a desirable trait for elite military units around the globe, and whilst I am not out blowing up fuel stations or rescuing hostages, being in the right mental and physical state is paramount to dealing with any form of conflict. This is a better vid (promise), but it is about an hour long, and may give you a better understanding of the principles we strive for in Systema.

 

[Gweilo]

Interesting reading.
Rhythm of Breathing Affects Memory and Fear - Neuroscience News