...OK. I've read and re-read what you've been putting down and read the posts after to see if I could understand what you are saying, but I really don't think what you've come up with is meant to instill the same lessons that are taught in the more mainstream Sword and Hammer. I think your response was decent, for the attack that your partner gave you whihc was a push and hit from behind.
I feel that the original technique (without having any experience with Kenpo ever) resembles a grab meant to either yank you back into the attack and hold you still to prvent you from fleeing. This type of attack would allow one to respond this way. Pushing energy would make these strikes less effective as there is less damage done as you are being moved away from the target. I look at sword and hammer and see lessons like targeting, rebounding strikes off of targets into new strikes, pinnning the attacking hand to gain control and tactile vision, and taking the initiative through a pre-emptive strike.
Your technique does not allow for these lessons to be aplied because the attack is different. Your attack is realistic but no more realistic than the other attack. It is just different. Therefore the lessons are different. That is what I see.
---Quote (Originally by ATACX GYM)---
that contention, sir, is incorrect and directly contradicted by the definition of The Ideal Phase itself. You are conflating a major failure in Kenpo--the default creation of an Ideal TECHNIQUE that has been universally passed off as The Ideal Phase--with the ACTUAL Ideal Phase ITSELF. The Ideal Phase...by definition...has to be made by the head of whatever group that is training Kenpo. That person or persons responsible for crafting The Ideal Phase must not only satisfy the definition of The Ideal Phase...that person or persons is also strongly urged to ensure that they consider the other three points of view that rounds out and manifestly completes The Ideal Phase PROCESS.
---End Quote---
...OK. I've read and re-read what you've been putting down and read the posts after to see if I could understand what you are saying, but I really don't think what you've come up with is meant to instill the same lessons that are taught in the more mainstream Sword and Hammer. I think your response was decent, for the attack that your partner gave you whihc was a push and hit from behind.
I feel that the original technique (without having any experience with Kenpo ever) resembles a grab meant to either yank you back into the attack and hold you still to prvent you from fleeing. This type of attack would allow one to respond this way. Pushing energy would make these strikes less effective as there is less damage done as you are being moved away from the target. I look at sword and hammer and see lessons like targeting, rebounding strikes off of targets into new strikes, pinnning the attacking hand to gain control and tactile vision, and taking the initiative through a pre-emptive strike.
Your technique does not allow for these lessons to be aplied because the attack is different. Your attack is realistic but no more realistic than the other attack. It is just different. Therefore the lessons are different. That is what I see.
Thank you for taking the time to read the posts on this thread, watch the videos and post your response...and thank you for saying that my response was decent.
Now on to your post...
"...OK. I've read and re-read what you've been putting down and read the posts after to see if I could understand what you are saying, but I really don't think what you've come up with is meant to instill the same lessons that are taught in the more mainstream Sword and Hammer. I think your response was decent, for the attack that your partner gave you whihc was a push and hit from behind.
"I feel that the original technique (without having any experience with Kenpo ever) resembles a grab meant to either yank you back into the attack and hold you still to prvent you from fleeing. This type of attack would allow one to respond this way..." KENSHIN
Actually I cover every more than a push and hit from behind. I cover every primary area from the left flank to the right flank, and include push pulls and punches. Which is more than what the "more mainstream Sword and Hammer" does. And did you say "either yank you back into the attack and hold you still to prvent you from fleeing..."?
[ ATACX GYM SWORD AND HAMMER PT. 1A, SHOT IN DECEMBER 2011 ]:
[video=youtube_share;AuvuhW1u2WE]http://youtu.be/AuvuhW1u2WE[/video]
by the way? This video is done by EPAKSorg video. EPAK stands for Ed Parker's American Kenpo.
[video=youtube_share;YGDc1oOFDcI]http://youtu.be/YGDc1oOFDcI[/video]
looks remarkably like my video visavis positioning doesn't it? Go to 0:36
[video=youtube_share;R-mmdyIHkjs]http://youtu.be/R-mmdyIHkjs[/video]
So anybody screeching about my positioning? There's no case to be made there either. I include all the primary standing functional positioning in this video [ I have others whre I do the same with clinch, ground, weapons, multifights, etc ] and NONE of my positions are wrong. In fact, including ALL of the positions that you can actually do Sword and Hammer from...makes you have a definitely more versatile and oftentimes BETTER sword and hammer visavis guys who DON'T do this.
"Pushing energy would make these strikes less effective as there is less damage done as you are being moved away from the target. I look at sword and hammer and see lessons like targeting, rebounding strikes off of targets into new strikes, pinnning the attacking hand to gain control and tactile vision, and taking the initiative through a pre-emptive strike..."--KENSHIN
If your training is dysfunctional...which the "more mainstream Sword and Hammer" is in huge amounts...your "lessons like targeting, rebounding strikes off of targets into new strikes, pinnning the attacking hand to gain control and tactile vision, and taking the initiative..." will also be dysfunctional. That means it won't work reliably under combat conditions. Which means that the tech fails miserably at the number one requirement of self defense: defending your self.
Regarding pushing? Well, to quote Doc..."it depends". I would tend to agree that the strikes would be less effective as there is less damage done [generally speaking ] unless the opponent is armed. Furthermore, you're not acknowledging that the push in conjunction with the strikes cause more problems and can be much more dangerous than the push [ or pull] or strike alone. You could be pushed INTO someone or an oncoming blow...while being hit from behind too [ multifight scenario]. You could be pushed down onto the ground and the strikes blast away your ability ti right yourself and regain balance. You could be pushed over something like a chair or table or another person. You could be pushed INTO something like a wall or car or bike or...like what happens out here in the neighborhood...you could get pushed into oncoming traffic while being belabored by blows.
The absolute killer to any argument about pushing, pulling or adding weapons to the situation is that...the tech that allows you to defeat a armed person who pushes and/or pulls you from the flank is the same tech that allows you to defeat the UNARMED person who does the same thing. And both of those versions also properly give you the time and space to assess whether or not you should annihilate the guy who just puts his hand on your shoulder and cocks his fist or wait, or a guy who grabs you by the shoulder and spins you about like..."you're not walking away from me".
The tech recommended in "the more mainstream Sword and Hammer" absolutely lacks these critical facets. Therefore it's less realistic, less capable, will get you hurt, and even if you COULD pull it off? You'll prolly by an excessive force or assault charge in the process. This is a point that I and another consistent critic of mine...Chris Parker...actually agree upon.
As for your comment about preemptive strikes? Doc, Clyde and Larry Tatum...three Kenpo Elders with whom I've disagreed with [ and agreed with ] from time to time...all flatly state that preemptive strikes under these scenarios are highly unlikely if not flat out impossible. It's a doofus idea to think that Kenpoists or most anyone else will always or even usually preempt attacks.I mean that with no disrespect.
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