LOL! Thats my new fav. word!!!
Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2
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LOL! Thats my new fav. word!!!
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No. The main issue is that my detractors don't know the difference between The Ideal Phase...which Mr. Parker defined, and which I left a definition for upthread...and The Idea TECHNIQUE. The Ideal TECHNIQUE does NOT AND NEVER DID EXIST. The techs that you see those other guys doing on their Kenpo videos and which Twin Fist and Chris Parker swear are right? Wrong. By Mr. Parker's definition and Doc Chapel's cosign. There NEVE WAS A IDEAL TECHNIQUE. My expression is fully aware of that fact, and that's why I'm right and they're wrong. Twin Fist, however, is in full denial of this fact because he's...Twin Fist.
Originally Posted by CyberTyger
Taken from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo ver. 1.0 ...
(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.
(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)
(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.
(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.
and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".
Your martial response to the scenario that gave rise to the Sword and Hammer IP is sensible as usual MJS, and the good news is...if you train S&H or whatever functionally? You reach exactly what you stated: you're not LOOKING to do tech "x" you just respond with what is appropriate. The cool thing is that when you're training and doing these 144 or so Kenpo patterns and tech sequences functionally, you also have a specific array of techs that you can apply to any given scenario...a vast arsenal which your opponent is likely to have NEVER SEEN thrown at him in that way in those circumstances. It's like a boxer coming into a boxing match with highly trained techs and a gameplan...and adaptability. Think of Floyd vs Sugar Shane. Floyd had no idea that Sugar Shane would present a jab as quick and accurate as he did in Round 1, and he had no idea that Shane would rock him twice in Round 2...but Floyd made brilliant tactical adjustments on the fly, and employed the refined Mayweather boxing arsenal in such a way that Sugar Shane wasn't able to properly guess and adjust to what was coming next. Just like what would happen if you train your [ Kenpo in this case, but any art would do: kali, capoeira, muay thai, tai chi, iaido, etc ] functionally.
Well, Kenpo was my first punching and kicking martial art, and especially back when boxing and Kenpo was all I knew...my gameplan was to use my boxing and Kenpo. Use techs that work and that I've trained to work in a wide variety of circumstances. Your push off response is Kenpo. Him pushing or pulling you and you knocking his hands off is Kenpo [ maybe you could have done it from drawing on your FUNCTIONAL white belt training and all those hours you spent learning how to do the double outside block or parry or redirect against live attacks of escalating intensity, or maybe you love PARTING WINGS and you simply used that opening block to deflect ole dude's grabbing hands or whatever ].
All of that is specifically given the green light by Mr. Parker himself when he wrote the definitions of and sequence of The Ideal Phase to The Equation Formula. I am literally the only person on this thread to follow this sequence, which by definition makes me literally [ so far anyway ] the only person to have done as Mr. Parker wrote he wanted done in INFINITE INSIGHTS. Mr. Parker specified that the Ideal Phase Concept was the combat model...you literally take a street attack of your choice and work Kenpo techs that thwart that street attack. You as the instructor choose your response method and you work it against resistance until your techs fight right in a fight. Direct. Simple. Brilliant. Effective. You are NOT required to wholesale copy a tech or a suggestion and ingrain it as The Ideal TECHNIQUE. There IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE, only a Ideal CONCEPT. The confines of Sword and Hammer require you to learn to employ Sword and Hammer FUNCTIONALLY against a RESISTING OPPONENT who EMULATES A STREET ATTACK. Nowhere does it require you to sweetly touch your partner's shoulder, cock your fist back and patiently wait as your partner runs off a series of techs against zero resistance. The people who do this or champion this approach in any way even incrementally are by definition manifestly wrong, and hellafied wrong in the real world of even functional training, as well as training themselves and their students to be possibly "dead" wrong in the real world in a real throwdown.
That's Twin Fist, Chris Parker, and anyone who cosigns them like Hollywood134 and anyone who agrees like jks9199. It's my understanding that the latter 2...Chris Parker and jks9199...are not actually Kenpo men. I have no idea if Hollywoood is a Kenpo man or not so I can't speak on his situation at this time. Chris and jks9199 can get a pass based upon a presumed ignorance of the material. Being able to read the posts and copy and paste various quotes isn't the same as spending decades practicing the techs as I have. But when presented with the material of the creator himself...Mr. Parker...and when further illuminated by the person who spent the most time with Mr. Parker over the last 30 years of his life and the highest ranking Kenpo senior on this site or on KT which squarely repudiates their positions and absolutely affirms mine? The honest non-uber egotistical martial artist acknowledges that he's wrong and thanks the person for correcting him for it because now...he's BETTER for the experience if he inculcates and applies the more correct, superior information.
Now Mr. Parker and Doc may have [ I would say it was an absolute frickin certainty, but I wasn't there so...] had some secret powwows which only they know about. Can't hold me responsible for not knowing what they discussed and what they worked out.
See whassup now?
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ATACX GYM
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shouldn't surprise you that the [ fill in the blank ] -gasms thing is something I started saying first on KT and here nearly a year ago and Twin Fist merely bit or is a Johnny Come Lately or both. Didn't get anything right on the Ideal Phase and now recycling my words and ideas as your own. 2 for 2, Twin Fist aka John.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
wow, i guess you invented the wheel too......
seek help.
seek help.
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If I did? You'd claim that real wheels are square and then when i proved that they're round? You'd say you did it first. Lol. Let it go, Twin Fist. It's okay man to be wrong from time to time. Doc pulled my coat on the proper terminology of the IP too and its history. I didn't know jack about Motion Kenpo til he schooled me on its history and even the term [ I never heard of Motion Kenpo til he mentioned it ]. I kept my mind open and still do; I critically analyze probe observe hypothesize experiment conclude share question and repeat.
I'm not here to diss you or test you man. Believe what you want.
AMANI..."peace"...
So, if the IPs never existed, then it begs the question....why are there 24/belt that're taught in many Kenpo schools? I've asked this before, may as well as again....did Parker set people up to fail?
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Here's a good question that is very much on topic but nowhere near as caustic as some aspects of various posts have been:
Why do you think specifically the hammerfist and specifically the sword hand was chosen for this specific scenario? What informs your opinion on the matter? What would happen if another set of techs were used...like, say a outside hammer block and heel palm or say a Tiger Claw and knee or a block and tackle? Why specifically a Hammerfist and a Handsword? Any ideas?
Why do you think specifically the hammerfist and specifically the sword hand was chosen for this specific scenario? What informs your opinion on the matter? What would happen if another set of techs were used...like, say a outside hammer block and heel palm or say a Tiger Claw and knee or a block and tackle? Why specifically a Hammerfist and a Handsword? Any ideas?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i agreed with you, and you are still telling me i am wrong..
ok i was wrong, your technique is crap.
happy now?
seek help
professional psychiatric help
ok i was wrong, your technique is crap.
happy now?
seek help
professional psychiatric help
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
IMO, and I'm just taking a shot in the dark here, but....I'd say the handsword was chosen because of the way we step, to pull the person off balance. Its a longer range tool, to reach the target. I'd say the hammerfist because again, its the best tool for the result of the HS, which will be the badguy leaning back, thus exposing the groin.
Could I step and fire off a side kick? Sure, why not. The diehards will argue that the techs are set up for a specific attack. If the guy does A then you do 1. If the guy does B then 1 won't fit that model so you have to do 2, thus the reason you have so many damn techs...lol. This is why *I* do what i do.
lol!
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You're conflating some terms my brother...the Ideal PHASE most definitely exists. it is as I have defined it upthread. Please read the definition all the way to the Equation Formula.
What happened was multipronged and exactly as Doc stated:
1) Too many early Black Belts were too stupid and too lazy and/or lacked the real life experience and/or skill to actually produce The Ideal Phase as Mr. Parker required of them. Instead they simply slavishly copied the EXAMPLE that was set forth for them in the instructor's manual known colloquially as BIG RED. These guys were like Decepticons...but stupid. They're...Moron-icons. They completely misunderstood and wholesale misrepresented Mr. Parker's art.
2) In slavishly mindlessly copying the EXAMPLE of a Ideal Phase without understanding the Ideal Phase CONCEPT, these Moron-icons made the very thing that Mr. Parker decried come into being...they created a totally dysfunctional, nonsensical Ideal TECHNIQUE. Cuz all they wanted was the belt promotion, they didn't want to think, probe, question, create, develope.
3) Mr. Parker's BB's by and large failed him, and in so doing...they failed us. They succeeded wildly commercially and brought down a Greek tragedy upon Kenpo. And that was what had guys like you and I questioning the very underpinnings of kenpo's training methodology and the mindsets that spawned such craptasticness. We were right to question the things we did; the answers we received were from people who didn't know what they were talking about and led us even further astray. I guess that Mr. Parker promoted too many people who sucked in the system but were good for business in order to get the mandatory financial success and the Kenpo brand well known...and that was a disasterous move for the quality of the techs, although it was a stroke of commercial and financial genius.
4) Doc has said more than once that Mr. Parker had resolved to take his Kenpo back and fix all the analrifficness therein, but he passed away very soon after he made that resolution. I get the feeling that he might have passed the within a year of making said resolution...cuz I think he would have made some serious inroads and succeeded at his goal if he had say...5 years to achieve it.
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Excellent answer, especially the part where you note that t he diehards insist on a inflexible response... "if the guy does A then you do 1". Exactly right. The diehards are wrong.
I will proffer my own opinion after years of using this tandem but I'd like to hear more from others like you MJS...
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
the truth is if the guy does "A" (in this case, a grab from the flank) you can do any of 100's of options
sword and hammer is ONE option
but
if you are gonna do Ed Parker's Sword and Hammer, you DO NOT SPIN OUT, that isnt sword and hammer any more than iced tea is a coke
you step IN and chop to the throat
if you dont do that, you are not doing Ed Parker's sword and hammer
what you are doing may be AWESOME, they might fall over dead
but that wont turn some made up BS into sword and hammer
and it doesnt matter, the techniques are just options, metaphors to teach you lessons
some people think they know better than Ed parker did, and that they dont need to learn the lessons.
we call those people fools.
now dont get me wrong, i think many of the techniques as written wont work. But many will work. And all of them teach you something. But thats just me, i dont think i know better than Ed Parker.
personally i think you can learn everythign you NEED to know in the 10 Master key techniques. Not everythign there is to know, but everythign you need to know.
you learn the lessons, you dont need the techniques.
sword and hammer is ONE option
but
if you are gonna do Ed Parker's Sword and Hammer, you DO NOT SPIN OUT, that isnt sword and hammer any more than iced tea is a coke
you step IN and chop to the throat
if you dont do that, you are not doing Ed Parker's sword and hammer
what you are doing may be AWESOME, they might fall over dead
but that wont turn some made up BS into sword and hammer
and it doesnt matter, the techniques are just options, metaphors to teach you lessons
some people think they know better than Ed parker did, and that they dont need to learn the lessons.
we call those people fools.
now dont get me wrong, i think many of the techniques as written wont work. But many will work. And all of them teach you something. But thats just me, i dont think i know better than Ed Parker.
personally i think you can learn everythign you NEED to know in the 10 Master key techniques. Not everythign there is to know, but everythign you need to know.
you learn the lessons, you dont need the techniques.
LOL...ahh...yes, I did mistake the word. To be honest, I've never heard the phrase "Ideal Technique" until just now...lol. Anywho....sooo...how the hell did these people get black belts, or any belts for that matter if they sucked? Why were they allowed to teach if they didn't understand what it was they were teaching?
This is probably another thread, but anyways....I remember one class I taught. Did the IP technqiue. A smaller female was working with a taller male. She just couldn't reach the intended target. She was like, "I can't reach his face, and this is where the strike is supposed to go." I said, "Yup, you're right, however, since you can't reach that target, why not hit here....or here...or here?" LOL! It was like the bulb just wasn't going off...lol.
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That sounds like a consistent critic of mine on this thread..."the light bulb just wasn't going off"...
...and NO the topic you broached is NOT another thread. It's directly connected to this thread. Many people not only don't understand The Ideal Phase, they belligerently refuse any form of education on it. Even from Mr. Parker's own writing.
Even though Mr. Parker clearly spelled it out. The sample expression of this tech--the pin, the step, the chop, the hammerfist-- is NOT a ironclad Ideal TECHNIQUE.
Mr. Parker's own writings specify that the Ideal Phase is multipronged, it's technique analysis and dissection, it can only be created when the head instructor of your group, training session, dojo, organization, whatever, crafts this tech using the Sword and Hammer movements in addressing a specifically selected common street attack.There are people who claim that I think that I'm smarter than Mr. Parker...when Mr. Parker's own writings and Mr. Parker's #1 living student specifically stated the contrary. My opinion was drawn directly from their writings. The folks who have their light bulbs off are entitled to keep it off if they wish.
Originally Posted by Doc
You really need to let the word "ideal" go. Try this; THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE. What is there exists because people moved up the ranks and became instructors with no knowledge, skill, or experience. These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed to. Each school, group, club etc was supposed to have one person who would set the IDEAL but only for their group. What you have is a bunch of people all taking the ideas in a manual and teaching it because that's all they have. So removes the word IDEAL from your vocabulary, unless you are talking about IDEALS you created that you teach for your students. That is the only ideal there is. What YOU CREATE.
You're misinformed, and I explained how the manual became the IDEAL for the majority when it was never supposed to be. It was only a guide to begin the process, but absent experience, knowledge, and skill that allowed you to think through the process the manual is all you need whether it works or not. Call it LAZY, call it whatever you want, just don't call them "universally" accepted, because its not true...
Originally Posted by Doc
Yep! Mr. Parker gave the the "Ideal Phase" concept, but never gave the "Ideal Technique." In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, but instead they took the Ideas in the manual, even when they didn't make sense and just taught whatever it said. Nobody cared whether they worked or not, all they wanted was to meet the requirements so they could get promoted. Then they turned around and did the same thing with their own students. Apparently, for many, thinking was optional.
Taken from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo ver. 1.0 ...
(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.
(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)
(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.
(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.
and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".
^^^^If you read the above you will see why I am right and all of my detractors are wrong. You will see why the expression proffered as an EXAMPLE of how SWORD AND HAMMER can be used in a specific scenario IS NOT THE IRONCLAD Ideal TECHNIQUE. There is no and never will be a ideal TECHNIQUE. People like Twin Fist are as wrong as wrong can be and they're refuted by the most powerful of sources: Mr. Parker and Doc Chapel. Anytime Twin claims that I think I'm smarter than Mr. Parker? He's really so enamored with and exalted by his OWN opinion that he won't be swayed by anyone else telling showing and proving in the most emphatic empirical way that he's wrong...and that INCLUDES MR. PARKER. As the above quotes show beyond any reasonable doubt.
Now, with that being said...in my next post I will proffer my own opinion about the importance of using Sword and Hammer...specifically those techs in specifically that situation...and what experiences I've had that lead me to my [ still developing ] hypothesis on the matter.
Oh yeah something else:
0-07-2006, 10:39 PM
#32
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[h=2]Re: Let me ask this[/h]
In TKD, and maybe karate too, that doesn't happen, because it's so abundantly clear that the hyungs/kata aren't really ready-made set-pieces to carry out literally in case of an attack, but are catalogues of (mostly concealed) fighting techniques, intended to be understood, trained and stored in muscle memory until such time as needed. A kiss may be just a kiss and a sigh just a sigh, but a `rising block' is definitely not a rising block. So no one goes around learning hyungs/kata as literal techniques to apply off-the-shelf in response to an assailant. But it sounds, from what you're saying here, that the kenpo technique drills are not like TKD/karate forms. They are meant to be taken literally and their bunkai are not concealed. Is this right, HKph? A elbow strike will not be concealed within the chambering phase of a down block but will be taught upfront as an elbow strike, followed by a knife-edge strike to the throat with the same arm, all of it transparent and meant to be taken literally? Is that the way kenpo technique drills work?
Yes and no. What I meant by set in stone is that many people never explore what is actually contained in the technique lesson, they never get past the ideal phase. The techniques are loaded with information, some obvious, some not so obvious.
In Parker's Kenpo you have 3 phases of learning techniques.
Ideal
What If
Spontaneous
In the ideal phase you learn the base techniques, as they are written to introduce a principle or concept.
In the what if phase, you add in different variables in the scenario. You start to resist and check each other off, in the execution of the techniques. Principle are reinforced and expanded on. The Kenpoist should start to formulate defense on the fly, not rely on a technique as written.
In the spontaneous phase you are adding and deleting, borrowing, rearranging, prefixing, and suffixing movements contained in the ideal techniques. Defense is spontaneous. The movements look nothing like the written techniques. In this phase the principle and concepts are ingrained, and well understood. This is the level that a Kenpoist should strive to be at.
It's funny. Sometimes people will watch others in a video, defend against an attack, with an on the fly sequence. The outcry of "That's not Kenpo!" "He didn't do Delayed Sword for that lapel grab!" These people missed the forest for the trees.
I'll probably be flambeed for my opinion, but that's ok. I have good teachers, I'll be OK.
Don't be a coward. Post your name if you leave bad karma."
By the way...look at hongkongfooey's sig^^^ "Don't be a coward. Post your name if you leave bad karma" and Twin Fist's sig. Aren't they remarkably similar? Lolol seems like Twin Fist bit my "-gasms" thing aaaand bit this guy's sig. Which he's had since at least 2006.
By the way...look at hongkongfooey's sig^^^ "Don't be a coward. Post your name if you leave bad karma" and Twin Fist's sig. Aren't they remarkably similar? Lolol seems like Twin Fist bit my "-gasms" thing aaaand bit this guy's sig. Which he's had since at least 2006.
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Here's what I see when I look at the classic Sword & Hammer: an underlying set of principles that say, in essence, when grabbed from the side, turn inward and step into the attacker, and attack at two levels, high & middle/low. When I look at something purporting to be a variant of Sword & Hammer, that's what I'm looking for -- turning inward, stepping in, especially, because my training has taught me to look for movement and structure and principles, more than specific techniques. Then I'm going to look at that hand sword and hammer; why those particular techniques, what are they doing? I see a longer range attack moving on a horizontal plane, that's going to go over or along the initial grab. A hand sword or chop fits beautifully to the throat -- but could be easily adapted to a back fist, or a slap, or even a clearing motion into a wrap over the arm. That downward hammer? It's a nice fit with the natural reaction of the hand to the throat or face, and it's moving on a vertical plane. It allows you to "drop" your weight behind the attack (I suspect this is the principle Parker called "Marriage of Gravity").
So, a couple of what I'd call "consistent" variations come to my mind. The initial hand sword might become a palm/grab to the face, and the hammer fist a vertical drop, taking the face with it straight down. You might wrap and drop on the arm. It might even simply become a clearing motion when you turn and recognize that the grab was your wife or your cousin or someone else whose trachea you don't want to crush. (Incidentally -- what I read the "kenpo sense" as being is just that; the ability to recognize the nature of the grab, and then identify the person you're dealing with and scale your response appropriately.) The stepping and basic pattern remains the same; an inward turn, a horizontal plane attack, moving into a vertical plane attack.
And, of course, this won't work "right" if the attack is significantly different. A push rather than a more static grab or pull will make you want to step out and away. A grab from behind rather than the flank will need a different step; by the time you spin that far around, it'll be too late. But, then, you need a different principle for a different situation, don't you?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
uh, i hate to break it to you, but I have been saying "whatever" gasm since a 1999 episode of Buffy the vampire slayer. The character Xander referres to an episode of ghost haunting as a "poltergasm"
been using it ever since.
let me blunt here RAS
I havnt seen anything from you I would want to copy, or repete. Simply put, you aint that impressive.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
called it.
That sounds like a consistent critic of mine on this thread..."the light bulb just wasn't going off"...
...and NO the topic you broached is NOT another thread. It's directly connected to this thread. Many people not only don't understand The Ideal Phase, they belligerently refuse any form of education on it. Even from Mr. Parker's own writing.
Even though Mr. Parker clearly spelled it out. The sample expression of this tech--the pin, the step, the chop, the hammerfist-- is NOT a ironclad Ideal TECHNIQUE.
Mr. Parker's own writings specify that the Ideal Phase is multipronged, it's technique analysis and dissection, it can only be created when the head instructor of your group, training session, dojo, organization, whatever, crafts this tech using the Sword and Hammer movements in addressing a specifically selected common street attack.There are people who claim that I think that I'm smarter than Mr. Parker...when Mr. Parker's own writings and Mr. Parker's #1 living student specifically stated the contrary. My opinion was drawn directly from their writings. The folks who have their light bulbs off are entitled to keep it off if they wish.
Originally Posted by Doc
You really need to let the word "ideal" go. Try this; THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE. What is there exists because people moved up the ranks and became instructors with no knowledge, skill, or experience. These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed to. Each school, group, club etc was supposed to have one person who would set the IDEAL but only for their group. What you have is a bunch of people all taking the ideas in a manual and teaching it because that's all they have. So removes the word IDEAL from your vocabulary, unless you are talking about IDEALS you created that you teach for your students. That is the only ideal there is. What YOU CREATE.
You're misinformed, and I explained how the manual became the IDEAL for the majority when it was never supposed to be. It was only a guide to begin the process, but absent experience, knowledge, and skill that allowed you to think through the process the manual is all you need whether it works or not. Call it LAZY, call it whatever you want, just don't call them "universally" accepted, because its not true...
Originally Posted by Doc
Yep! Mr. Parker gave the the "Ideal Phase" concept, but never gave the "Ideal Technique." In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, but instead they took the Ideas in the manual, even when they didn't make sense and just taught whatever it said. Nobody cared whether they worked or not, all they wanted was to meet the requirements so they could get promoted. Then they turned around and did the same thing with their own students. Apparently, for many, thinking was optional.
Originally Posted by CyberTyger
Taken from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo ver. 1.0 ...
(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.
(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)
(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.
(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.
and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".
^^^^If you read the above you will see why I am right and all of my detractors are wrong. You will see why the expression proffered as an EXAMPLE of how SWORD AND HAMMER can be used in a specific scenario IS NOT THE IRONCLAD Ideal TECHNIQUE. There is no and never will be a ideal TECHNIQUE. People like Twin Fist are as wrong as wrong can be and they're refuted by the most powerful of sources: Mr. Parker and Doc Chapel. Anytime Twin claims that I think I'm smarter than Mr. Parker? He's really so enamored with and exalted by his OWN opinion that he won't be swayed by anyone else telling showing and proving in the most emphatic empirical way that he's wrong...and that INCLUDES MR. PARKER. As the above quotes show beyond any reasonable doubt.
Now, with that being said...in my next post I will proffer my own opinion about the importance of using Sword and Hammer...specifically those techs in specifically that situation...and what experiences I've had that lead me to my [ still developing ] hypothesis on the matter.
Oh yeah something else:
0-07-2006, 10:39 PM#32
hongkongfooey
Martial Talk
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Re: Let me ask this
Originally Posted by exile
In TKD, and maybe karate too, that doesn't happen, because it's so abundantly clear that the hyungs/kata aren't really ready-made set-pieces to carry out literally in case of an attack, but are catalogues of (mostly concealed) fighting techniques, intended to be understood, trained and stored in muscle memory until such time as needed. A kiss may be just a kiss and a sigh just a sigh, but a `rising block' is definitely not a rising block. So no one goes around learning hyungs/kata as literal techniques to apply off-the-shelf in response to an assailant. But it sounds, from what you're saying here, that the kenpo technique drills are not like TKD/karate forms. They are meant to be taken literally and their bunkai are not concealed. Is this right, HKph? A elbow strike will not be concealed within the chambering phase of a down block but will be taught upfront as an elbow strike, followed by a knife-edge strike to the throat with the same arm, all of it transparent and meant to be taken literally? Is that the way kenpo technique drills work?
Yes and no. What I meant by set in stone is that many people never explore what is actually contained in the technique lesson, they never get past the ideal phase. The techniques are loaded with information, some obvious, some not so obvious.
In Parker's Kenpo you have 3 phases of learning techniques.
Ideal
What If
Spontaneous
In the ideal phase you learn the base techniques, as they are written to introduce a principle or concept.
In the what if phase, you add in different variables in the scenario. You start to resist and check each other off, in the execution of the techniques. Principle are reinforced and expanded on. The Kenpoist should start to formulate defense on the fly, not rely on a technique as written.
In the spontaneous phase you are adding and deleting, borrowing, rearranging, prefixing, and suffixing movements contained in the ideal techniques. Defense is spontaneous. The movements look nothing like the written techniques. In this phase the principle and concepts are ingrained, and well understood. This is the level that a Kenpoist should strive to be at.
It's funny. Sometimes people will watch others in a video, defend against an attack, with an on the fly sequence. The outcry of "That's not Kenpo!" "He didn't do Delayed Sword for that lapel grab!" These people missed the forest for the trees.
I'll probably be flambeed for my opinion, but that's ok. I have good teachers, I'll be OK.Don't be a coward. Post your name if you leave bad karma."
By the way...look at hongkongfooey's sig^^^ "Don't be a coward. Post your name if you leave bad karma" and Twin Fist's sig. Aren't they remarkably similar? Lolol seems like Twin Fist bit my "-gasms" thing aaaand bit this guy's sig. Which he's had since at least 2006.
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