Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

[MJS]

This thread is crazy...LOL. So, in a nutshell, the main issue is that Ras' S&H technically isn't S&H, because he drastically changed it. IMO, no, its no longer S&H, but I'd still say that elements of S&H could be there, depending of course, on exactly whats done.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Ras, do you teach the IP "best case" of the EPAK techniques you tech?

if not ,then you are hurting them just as much as the teachers that ONLY teach the IP "best case"

the IP "Best case" teaches us lessons, without it, you are missing the point.

certainly you are not restricted to ONLY teaching that, (hell, i dont ever do JUST the IP) but it is a valuable part of kenpo training.

at least for EPAK techniques.

Yes, I teach the IP best case EPAK techs...if only to highlight the fact that the more realistic variants I use are superior in every regard. Targeting, lessons of movement, functional response to a real world functional attack, functional athletic training mentally physically etc....these things can't be properly grasped when we're limited to text. But the moment we get on the mat or I start showing you the techs live? When we apply them right after each other against even moderate resistance? Mine comes shining through. Plus mine shows that it can and does handle the "best case" scenario.

There is no lesson that a dysfunctional or less functional tech can teach that a [ more ] funtional tech can't teach better sooner more thoroughly and for longer. Thus my permanent bias toward functionalism.

 

[Twin Fist]

and once again, you claim to know more than Ed Parker did.

he created those for a reason.

a thing can be different, not better, not worse, just different.

has that ever occured to you?

 

[ATACX GYM]

and once again, you claim to know more than Ed Parker did.

he created those for a reason.

a thing can be different, not better, not worse, just different.

has that ever occured to you?

Doc Chapel has made it clear over and over again that Mr. Parker never created thee Ideal Technique; that various techs are the result of and may in and of themselves be processes. Please ask him to clarify if the quotes of his that I supplied aren't sufficient. I have never ever claimed to know more than Ed Parker. I have never compared myself to Ed Parker. Only you have, sir.

I agree Mr. Parker created The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process for a reason. What do you think that reason is, Twin Fist?

Of course things can be different, not better or worse. I'm fully aware of that. But it's better to learn to defend yourself from a punch...when someone's punching. Otherwise you're not defending yourself from the punch. You may be preemptively halting the punch from being launched by some form of avoidance or prevention method [ I prefer this approach ] but that won't help when you're in a situation when fisticuffs must occur or you're breaking up a fight in progress etc etc.

Let's not start up on the areas that we disagree with each other, John. We already know where we differ. It's time for us to discuss other areas...like areas where we agree and how we can improve.

 

[ATACX GYM]

This thread is crazy...LOL. So, in a nutshell, the main issue is that Ras' S&H technically isn't S&H, because he drastically changed it. IMO, no, its no longer S&H, but I'd still say that elements of S&H could be there, depending of course, on exactly whats done.

Now, Doc has said that Mr. Parker never created a solid fixed Ideal Technique. Doc in fact very strongly remonstrated with me in quotes I left on this thread where he said to use the phrase ' idea not Ideal" Technique. I then quoted CyberTyger's printing of the actual definitions of the Phases and Formula that comprise The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS. And guess what?

There is no fixed in stone Sword and Hammer or anything else. Exactly like Doc said. Therefore, my interpretation of Sword and Hammer is only A idea which for my Gym became AN Ideal Technique. Furthermore? The most common iterations of Sword and Hammer and literally every other technique in Kenpo is also only AN Ideal Technique, not THEE Ideal Technique. As Doc and others have repeatedly reminded us...Mr. Parker wanted each Ideal Tech to be crafted by the lead instructor of your group or your dojo using The 4 step Ideal Phase Technique process and Kenpo techniques combined with your instructor's knowledge and life experience.

So what if a guy who was a wrestler or kungfu guy or judoka or boxer learned Kenpo too and became an instructor? He's completely free to add his knowledge to The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS and craft his OWN Ideal Technique for his group...using Kenpo techs and concepts. That's what I did. This is wholly and entirely in step with the definition of The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS. Therefore my tech is AN Ideal Technique and it's MY Ideal Technique. Not yours.

The common Sword and Hammer tech that you guys think is THEE Ideal Technique is NOT "thee" mandatory default Sword and Hammer. It is AN Ideal Technique . There IS NO PERMANENT OR FIXED Ideal Technique.

Please read the definitions for The IP as drawn from Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights in the quote below.

Originally Posted by CyberTygerTaken from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo ver. 1.0 ...

(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.

(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)

(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".


For most of our Kenpo lives, we have been vastly misinformed as to what The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process actually IS and we've been misinformed as to how to apply it. Basically almost all of us except for say Doc to some degtree...me too...have been thinking that 2+2=5. We were all wrong to believe that what we are shown as THEE Ideal Tech is anything more than AN Ideal Tech.


For most of our Kenpo lives, most of us have been misinformed as to what the IP is. The IP IS NOT A SPECIFIC MARTIAL ART TECHNIQUE. It is...by definition written by Mr. Parker "...the analytical process of dissecting a technique."


That process has 4 steps...The Ideal Phase [ selecting the tech that is to be analyzed and how that tech is expressed ], The What If and The Formulation Phases, and The Equation Formula.

The old skool Sword and Hammer works perfectly well, given the constraints that it operates under. Like John said, it's a "best case" scenario situation. Okay cool. Kudos.

It's my experience and those of everyone I have ever known or seen that "the best case" is exceedingly rare. So my Sword and Hammer works for many of the "less than best case" situations and all of the variables that I teach. So I select a less than best case, realistic functional iteration of combat...that's The Ideal Phase Part I portion...then proceed from there and that would be...the What If and Formulation Phases,and Equation Formula. Fits perfectly.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, Ras, here's the question for you: What do you think makes the technique "Sword and Hammer" in the first place? Not your version, but what makes Sword and Hammer what it is? Forgetting if you think it's viable, or if it's "Idea not Ideal", or any of that, how would you define what makes Sword and Hammer specifically Sword and Hammer in Kenpo (EPAK)?

 

[Twin Fist]

if there is no fixed version of the technique why does everyone seem to know the same version of the techniques but you?

there IS a set version, but it isnt the end all version, we have been through this and you are again splitting hairs

here is how you and everyone can improve

stop trying to re-invent the wheel

just say, "thats a wheel, lemme see if i can use that wheel as a base to build a car...."

and stop saying "my **** is better" its annoying

anf grow some hair!

 

[MJS]

if there is no fixed version of the technique why does everyone seem to know the same version of the techniques but you?

there IS a set version, but it isnt the end all version, we have been through this and you are again splitting hairs

This! You took the words from my mouth.

Ras, regarding your post to me.....I was going to say the same thing TF just did.....pretty much every Kenpo school around, teaches S&H. Does Doc teach S&H? I'd wager a guess that they all teach is pretty much the same way, as a base, guide, whatever you want to call it, and then, do what should be done.....use those ideas, concepts, principles, etc, to formulate a response, according to whats happening.

I think the confusion lies in the IP and IT. It seems from discussions that I've had with you Ras, that you feel the IP sucks. Thus the reason you're creating something different. I"m creating something different. I'm sure Kaju guys dont do the punch counters, club techs, grab arts, etc step by step, by the book. But, initially, despite how poor it may be, the IP techs are taught.

 

[ATACX GYM]

This! You took the words from my mouth.

Ras, regarding your post to me.....I was going to say the same thing TF just did.....pretty much every Kenpo school around, teaches S&H. Does Doc teach S&H? I'd wager a guess that they all teach is pretty much the same way, as a base, guide, whatever you want to call it, and then, do what should be done.....use those ideas, concepts, principles, etc, to formulate a response, according to whats happening.

I think the confusion lies in the IP and IT. It seems from discussions that I've had with you Ras, that you feel the IP sucks. Thus the reason you're creating something different. I"m creating something different. I'm sure Kaju guys dont do the punch counters, club techs, grab arts, etc step by step, by the book. But, initially, despite how poor it may be, the IP techs are taught.

Now we're getting somewhere, guys and gals. You asked me the same question that I asked Doc on KT months ago about the IP. I already left a link to that thread on this thread some pages back, but here it is again so you don't have to go hunting for it:

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/show...ACRIFICE&highlight=DOC+AND+DOC+DAVE+INNAHOUSE


Notice that I specifically made it clear to both Docs that I was going to be asking questions about forms, sets and IPs. We cover this area that those of us in this thread are discussing now. Vigorously. Thoroughly. You already know I'm gonna be slangin some real questions and expect some real answers. Well...both Docs are brilliant and they answered. The answers they gave me I am largely giving to you guys now but the real stuff? Stuff I'm still digesting? That's still in the thread. So go peep the link.

Okay the REAL answers that came from the above link and my conversations with both Docs are more complex than what I'm giving here, but I'm giving you the more edited but bottom line answers that were given to me:

Mr. Parker never created THEE IDEAL TECHNIQUE. There is NO such thing as THEE Ideal Technique. There is only THE IDEAL PHASE TECHNIQUE ANALYTICAL PROCESS. Exactly as Mr. Parker wrote. Look again at the definitions:


.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.

(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)

(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".



You are to use THIS PROCESS^^^to come up with your techniques.

The Sword and Hammer that Mr. Parker showed as AN EXAMPLE is NOT a tech that WE ALL MUST SLAVISHLY FOLLOW. That's like taking an example solution for an algebra equation...and saying that all of algebra has to look exactly like that example problem and example solution. You're supposed to learn THE PROCESS OF SOLVING ALGEBRA. You're NOT supposed to COPY THIS SAMPLE PROBLEM AND SOLUTION AND SAY THAT'S ALL ALGEBRA IS.

If I'm trying to teach you algebra and I give you this problem and say: "Solve for 'x' ":

x - 4 = 10

and you say x=14 and I say great! You did it! You're NOT supposed to think that every time you see x? X MUST equal 14.

You're supposed to grasp the thinking and solving processes that leads to the correct answer every time you're faced with a problem.

Well...too many of Mr. Parker's early BBs got it wrong from jump street. They never solved for "x". They just 'copied the answer' like the stupid jock in class does. Guess what that means? THE JOCK IS LOST WHEN IT'S EXAM TIME CUZ HE NEVER LEARNED ALGEBRA.

You know what that means when you're tested on the street? Yep...you lose because your teacher never taught you Kenpo that works in the first place.

But these selfsame early Parker BBs who couldn't solve Kenpo's algebra were keen businessmen, and were the most commercially successful. They raked in alot more students overall than did the general run of Parker BBs who GOT what Mr. Parker was saying.

That's how all of us who were hoodwinked about the IP PROCESS in the first place got hoodwinked. In our lineage somewhere is a instructor who came from a school or another instructor who was influenced and/or taught by someone who never got Kenpo Algebra. And to this day...not only does that isntructor who hoodwinked us NOT know that he hoodwinked us...he himself is hoodwinked and will swear to his dying day that he's not.

But that's what happened.

Too many of Mr.Parker's BBs didn't understand what he was teaching, too many were too lazy to do the work as required from the IP...so they took movements that Mr. Parker left as AN EXAMPLE [ back in the 1960's remember; when kungfu was virtually unheard of and kicking in fights was considered to be "dirty" ] and simply copied them.

It gets worse still. When many of Mr. Parker's ideas were recorded in his big manual FOR TEACHERS ONLY which was called "Big Red" [ because the manuals were big and red in color ]...the BBs simply COPIED what they were shown. They didn't WORK what they were shown. They NEVER CREATED THEIR OWN IP's AS THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO. Instead they just showed their students what they'd copied. The students did it too because they wanted their next belt rank.

Then it got EVEN WORSE.

Remember...the whole of EPAK is also a commercial money making vehicle. Mr. Parker recruited many BBs from other styles. Our own Doc Chapel studied with Master Wong's elder brother, IIRC, and came to Mr. Parker with a background in kungfu firmly in hand. Many other BBs were recruited from outside of karate in order to form the commercial EPAK Kenpo that we are all practicing now. Doc calls it MOTION KENPO as this system is based on motion.

Well, alot of Mr. Parker's earlier BBs hit upon the idea of selling BIG RED to their students...and did so, from what I understand, directly against Mr. Parker's wishes. These guys felt that they could and should make the correct financial decisions for themselves, and either didnt care or didn't give proper consideration to the disastrous consequences that such decisions held for Kenpo as a martial system with integrity and functional viability self-defense wise. These other guys reaped benefits from the decision; made them lots of money. Confused the hell out of the students because the students didn't have the martial training or life experience by and large to grasp what Mr. Parker was trying to tell them. In exactly the same way that maaaany of us didn't grasp and still don't grasp what Bruce Lee was trying to tell us with TAO OF JEET KUNE DO.

Well, with Mr. Parker? The confusion was multipronged. First? Mister Prker's IIIK wasn't even out yet when this was happening. Second? When it did come out? Most people didn't and still don't understand Mr. Parker's 5 Volume Magnum Opus...Infinite Insights Into Kenpo. Exactly the same way most people still don't grasp Bruce Lee's TAO today. Worse? BIG RED was a teaching model not meant for students but students got their hands on it by purchasing it from money grubbin BB businessmen who were in the Parker organization.

Imagine 2 TAOS OF JEET KUNE DO...one as a philosophical and general commercial explanatory treatise. Another as an outline for building your own teaching curriculum. Both aimed at people who don't know wth you're talking about or wth they're doing. Imagine that they start arguing amongst themselves and with you. Multiply by nearly 60 years. And you have what we got today.

Again...there IS NO HARD AND FAST IDEAL TECHNIQUE THAT ALL OTHERS MUST BOW TO. You as a teacher are to craft your own IP for your students using a scenario that you select and the techs suggested for your scenario...like Sword and Hammer...then apply the 4 step tango of The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS to it so that you can come up with a response.

Your IP will be different than mine. But if you follow the 4 step tango? It will work.

 

[ATACX GYM]

if there is no fixed version of the technique why does everyone seem to know the same version of the techniques but you?

there IS a set version, but it isnt the end all version, we have been through this and you are again splitting hairs

here is how you and everyone can improve

stop trying to re-invent the wheel

just say, "thats a wheel, lemme see if i can use that wheel as a base to build a car...."

and stop saying "my **** is better" its annoying

anf grow some hair!

aaaand drum roll please...

Many contributed IDEAS for the manuals, but they were not IDEALS, but ideas. IDEALS were supposed to be creating by the school heads, based on the the IDEAS provided as a starting point reference, but you could do anything within the framework of the attack. I SAY AGAIN. THERE WERE NEVER ANY IDEALS, ONLY IDEAS.

Originally Posted by Doc
You really need to let the word "ideal" go. Try this; THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE. What is there exists because people moved up the ranks and became instructors with no knowledge, skill, or experience. These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed to. Each school, group, club etc was supposed to have one person who would set the IDEAL but only for their group. What you have is a bunch of people all taking the ideas in a manual and teaching it because that's all they have. So removes the word IDEAL from your vocabulary, unless you are talking about IDEALS you created that you teach for your students. That is the only ideal there is. What YOU CREATE.

You're misinformed, and I explained how the manual became the IDEAL for the majority when it was never supposed to be. It was only a guide to begin the process, but absent experience, knowledge, and skill that allowed you to think through the process the manual is all you need whether it works or not. Call it LAZY, call it whatever you want, just don't call them "universally" accepted, because its not true...






Originally Posted by Doc
Yep! Mr. Parker gave the the "Ideal Phase" concept, but never gave the "Ideal Technique." In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, but instead they took the Ideas in the manual, even when they didn't make sense and just taught whatever it said. Nobody cared whether they worked or not, all they wanted was to meet the requirements so they could get promoted. Then they turned around and did the same thing with their own students. Apparently, for many, thinking was optional.

and since doc mentioned ideas, here's the definition for that:


IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".

 

[ATACX GYM]

And what have I been saying since page 3 especially of this thread?

Okay rather than take forever going back and forth? Let's take a direct look at this stuff from the actual definition of THE IDEAL PHASE and its other mandatory components and compare and contrast step by step:

(p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.

(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)

(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

and since doc mentioned ideas,
IDEAS- One of the philosophical views of Kenpo that considers defensive and offensive moves to be no more than concepts that vary with each and every situation. <- adds a bit more context for me when I re-read Doc's post about the "IDEALS" being "IDEAS".



Everything that makes the point--taken in proper context--is right there^^^^^


First step? Let's have the teacher "selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze". That attack is launched at 0:16 in this video:

[video=youtube_share;A36Bw5I3-g0]http://youtu.be/A36Bw5I3-g0[/video]


Now, THIS is what most people call Theee singular sole Sword and Hammer, which effectively creates the Ideal TECHNIQUE of Sword and Hammer:

[video=youtube_share;oJbyIBmhDN0]http://youtu.be/oJbyIBmhDN0[/video]

Compare the two...and immediately the flaws in this approach are seen. These flaws are legion. First? The above tech doesn't satisfy the requirements for the actual definition for The Ideal Phase:

"p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW."

Are there fixed moves of defense and offense? Yes, but the dysfunctional "attack" followed by the equally dysfunctional "response" does not address the street reality...as shown in the link above. Does the form of Sword and Hammer address the 'anticipated reactions' that can stem from the projected and expected moves of defense and offense...in the real world? No, it doesn't. There is no addressing of the power of the grab, the body momentum follow through, and the fact that the punch would be launched nearly simultaneously with the grab and push/pull.


"(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)"

Are the expected and unexpected reactions of the opponent a part of the Sword and Hammer as displayed by the other videos? What if the opponent throws a punch? What if the push knocked you off balance? What if he tackles you? What if he doesn't push you...he just cracks you from the side or behind you or whatever [ which is what happens most of the time ]? NO.


(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

Is there any aspect of this approach in the tech? Even partially? NO.


(p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.


There is no hint of The Equation Formula in the above Sword and Hammer expression. In short...since it lacks the primary components of The Ideal Phase Analytical Process...THE TECHNIQUE THAT ALL OF YOU LAUDED IS NOT THEE IDEAL TECHNIQUE. It CAN be an "idea"...but it CANNOT be and there has NEVER BEEN a IDEAL TECHNIQUE.



In short? If you trained THIS method.--->

[video=youtube_share;oJbyIBmhDN0]http://youtu.be/oJbyIBmhDN0[/video]

you'd get your head taken off. You'd fail to thwart the attack. Thwarting the attack is THE FIRST requirement for any self defense technique. You can thwart the attack by fleeing, but in this case? Thwarting the attack requires a functional deployment of The Sword and Hammer. Now...

This is MY Sword and Hammer:


Atacx Gym Sword and Hammer 1

[video=youtube_share;eo4yj0MZyeI]http://youtu.be/eo4yj0MZyeI[/video]

Atacx Gym Sword and Hammer 1A

[video=youtube_share;AuvuhW1u2WE]http://youtu.be/AuvuhW1u2WE[/video]

Atacx Gym Sword and Hammer 2

[video=youtube_share;R-mmdyIHkjs]http://youtu.be/R-mmdyIHkjs[/video]

"p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW."

The combat scenario is the same as previously.

Now, look at my variants. Does the Atacx Gym IP contained within the technique "fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them" ? Absolutely. The first thing I address is that the grab [ that's usually the BG grabbing us ] is aggressive and transfers its energy and bodily followthrough to the defending target [that's usually us ]. This is wholly ignored by the dysfunctional other variant. Another basic real world requirement is that the punch happens at the same time or nearly the same time of the push/pull. They're grabbing you for a reason...and that reason is to do something to you that you don't want. Usually punch your block off. But you can get cracked with a bottle, stabbed, pushed over, tackled, simply pulled away...all manner of things. But in EVERY case? Energy is transmitted from the grab to the person grabbed. I address the grab AND the followup attack...

...and I do so in a way that allows me the option of correctly assessing the grabber's intent. It's not always necessary to Kenpo some jerk into oblivion. If you snappily disengage his grab? That alone could de-escalate the situation. The person grabbing you could be a friend or a stranger who grabbed you and surprised you. The point is? You have to be sure that whoever grabbed you DESERVES to be hit with the Sword and Hammer. That assessment time is built into my tech. It's wholly absent in the dysfunctional other variants.

"(p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique. (me talking: not sure I agree with the term programmed.) Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)"


I'm all over this Phase. What if he grabbed you from a different position? What if he just PUNCHED you and DIDN'T grab and pull you. What if he grabbed you from a different hand and different lead leg or from a different position? What if he PUSHED you and PUNCHED you instead of PULLED and punched you? The other technique which too many champion don't even remotely engage this area.


"(p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting."

My expression is the only one that actually shows in its base technique the actual application of newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Allll of the other ones merely mimic the static nonsense of this first dysfunctional tech.


"p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence."

The culmination of the Ideal Phase Analytical Process is the above. As all of you noted, my expression looks radically different than the tech that you're used to seeing. Yeeep. Cuz mine WORKS and I'm actually doing The Ideal Phase analytical process in its entirety. Precisely as defined step by step...and not misapplied or misunderstood.

You guys are used to accepting a dysfunctional tech, and you're used to crediting what is essentially a bankrupt idea...i.e. the Ideal TECHNIQUE. There is no one way to do the Sword and Hammer Ideal Phase tech, but all the Ideal Phase methods require the defense to be subjected to the whole Ideal Phase Analytical Process to EVEN QUALIFY for consideration as an Ideal Phase Analytical technique. What you guys keep calling thee IP is NOT qualified for such distinction.

Most essential of all? The IP tech--whichever IP you choose, however you physically articulate that tech--MUST WORK AGAINST THE FULL POWER, FULL SPEED TECH IT'S SUPPOSED TO DEFEAT. This means that whatever IP you choose? Said defense must actually be repeatedly tested against resistance...or else you can't take a common street attack, enact that attack live or with any sort of honest and truthful energy in class, and then select techs that will reliably thwart it. Which is the basic premise of any and all self-defense. You know...reliably defending your self against attacks.


Now, I'm not the only one that has multiple options drawn from the natural and expected counters to counters that the BG is likely to pull off. The Tracy's had it built into their system since prior to my birth. It's my understanding that Mr.Parker loooong had them built into his personal system. Boxers, MMA, JKDU, SBG and maaaany other guys and gals have it. In Capoeira, Mestre Bimba's secuencias fill this function rather well. Etc etc.

Please reflect upon the above.

AMANI..."peace"....

--

"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW AND WHY YOU TRAIN"

"THE FIGHT YOU ALWAYS WIN IS THE FIGHT YOU'RE NOT IN"

"YOU MUST LEARN TO HEAL IF YOU'VE LEARNED TO DESTROY"

"AVOID TROUBLE,BUT IF TROUBLE IS UNAVOIDABLE? PUT TROUBLE IN TROUBLE"

Are we all on the same page now? Can we move on now? Chris Parker asked an excellent question about "lessons" in Sword and Hammer that I'd like to address but we gotta get this straight and have all of us on the same page so we can properly have that discussion and kick around the lessons that we've all learned. Maybe we can help each other grasp things better as a whole in a way that we by ourselves or with a smaller group of friends could NOT do.

 

[MJS]

"Many contributed IDEAS for the manuals, but they were not IDEALS, but ideas. IDEALS were supposed to be creating by the school heads, based on the the IDEAS provided as a starting point reference, but you could do anything within the framework of the attack. I SAY AGAIN. THERE WERE NEVER ANY IDEALS, ONLY IDEAS."

Taken from the link you posted Ras. Thats all I need...lol. Just to clarify, *I* never said the ideal phase techs were ideal techs. If I did, please show me where, in this heap of a thread that I said that. My point, and I believe TF was making this point as well, is.....every Kenpo school around that I know of, teaches S&H. Its obviously the ideal phase base model that everyone uses. If it wasn't meant to be taught, then there're a slew of schools doing it all wrong I guess...lol. But I dont think thats the case.

What it seems like, is you're saying (and again this is a guess) is that all ideal phase techs suck. They wont work. But what I'm (you) doing, does. I believe this is the issue with what Chris and TF are saying.

As for what lessons it teaches...its now addressing an attack from a direction other than directly in front of you, like delayed sword, how to pin/attack at the same time, teaches marriage with gravity.

 

[jks9199]

Are we all on the same page now? Can we move on now? Chris Parker asked an excellent question about "lessons" in Sword and Hammer that I'd like to address but we gotta get this straight and have all of us on the same page so we can properly have that discussion and kick around the lessons that we've all learned. Maybe we can help each other grasp things better as a whole in a way that we by ourselves or with a smaller group of friends could NOT do.

No, we're not. Because you are answering a different combative question than the standardized Sword & Hammer does.

You want to talk about a grab/push/strike from the rear flank? Sure, we can do that. But not if you're going to try to say it's the same as a grab/pull. Because the solutions to the two problems are going to be inherently different. It's like if I took out shopping for a luxury car, and went to a Mack dump truck shop. Both are valid forms of transport, fit for their duties -- but not variants of the same thing, either. And they won't solve the same problems.

 

[Twin Fist]

i am pretty sure i said this too, the by the book sword and hammer will not work if you change the attack to a push and punch

no one is debating that

for the attack it was designed for, it works just fine. the IP's dont suck (well, some of them do, but overall they work just fine, even if they are limited to one attack)

you dont do five swords for a half nelson and you dont do wings of silk for a punch.

Now, in kajukembo, every branch does the punch counters, grab arts, knife counters, etc slightly differently, and its ok because it is all kajukembo, and thats what matters.

what you are doing IS kenpo.

it isnt the same as EPAK, and thats ok.

But when you do EPAP stuff, and EPAK blackbelts tell you you are doing it wrong, you ought to listen to them, be respectfull and say "what i am doing isnt the same as yours, this is my version of it"

unless EPAK is one of the 14 styles you claim dan ranks in.You dont tell the experts they are wrong when you are not qualified to in thier system......

and i swear, if you copy and past that same crap again i will hunt you down and kick your puppy!!

seriously, we have all read it one of the 14 other times you posted it......

 

[Flying Crane]

aaaand drum roll please...

Originally Posted by Doc
You really need to let the word "ideal" go. Try this; THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE. What is there exists because people moved up the ranks and became instructors with no knowledge, skill, or experience. These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed to. Each school, group, club etc was supposed to have one person who would set the IDEAL but only for their group. What you have is a bunch of people all taking the ideas in a manual and teaching it because that's all they have. So removes the word IDEAL from your vocabulary, unless you are talking about IDEALS you created that you teach for your students. That is the only ideal there is. What YOU CREATE.

Originally Posted by Doc
Yep! Mr. Parker gave the the "Ideal Phase" concept, but never gave the "Ideal Technique." In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, but instead they took the Ideas in the manual, even when they didn't make sense and just taught whatever it said. Nobody cared whether they worked or not, all they wanted was to meet the requirements so they could get promoted. Then they turned around and did the same thing with their own students. Apparently, for many, thinking was optional.

I'm don't honestly have any dog in this race, but something I've noticed on a number of occasions, and the underlined portions bring it up again...

If what Doc has posted here is historically accurate as to what happened under Mr. Parker's watch, and Mr. Parker allowed it to happen in the name of business, I find that kind of disturbing. Honestly, it strikes me as something of an endictment of Mr. Parker and what he was selling and how he was selling it. Am I the only one who sees that?

 

[MJS]

I'm don't honestly have any dog in this race, but something I've noticed on a number of occasions, and the underlined portions bring it up again...

If what Doc has posted here is historically accurate as to what happened under Mr. Parker's watch, and Mr. Parker allowed it to happen in the name of business, I find that kind of disturbing. Honestly, it strikes me as something of an endictment of Mr. Parker and what he was selling and how he was selling it. Am I the only one who sees that?

Well Mike, IMHO, I think you hit the nail right on the damn head! I've asked similar questions, things like did he teach different things to different people and why, why no quality control, etc, and never really got a straight answer. But yeah, I think its disturbing too. I mean, if someone isn't doing something right, why're they being promoted? Why aren't they being corrected? Maybe this'd make a good topic for another thread..lol. Quality control in Kenpo. Wait...there is none...LOL.

Actually, I'm sure there're some schools out there, that actually take pride in what they do.

 

[Twin Fist]

i refuse to believe that GDM Parker went through the trouble of creating the manuals if they didnt mean anything...

he put it on paper in a certain way, a certain response to a certain attack for a reason

for that matter, if there is no "right" way of doing ANY technique WHY CREATE 172 OF THE DAMNED THINGS?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Flying Crane]

Well Mike, IMHO, I think you hit the nail right on the damn head! I've asked similar questions, things like did he teach different things to different people and why, why no quality control, etc, and never really got a straight answer. But yeah, I think its disturbing too. I mean, if someone isn't doing something right, why're they being promoted? Why aren't they being corrected? Maybe this'd make a good topic for another thread..lol. Quality control in Kenpo. Wait...there is none...LOL.

Actually, I'm sure there're some schools out there, that actually take pride in what they do.

I am sure there are schools that take pride in what they do. I'd say that (hopefully) all of them do and I'll take on faith that they do. But did Mr. Parker set them all up for failure, and none of them realize it? Do people believe that there is a depth of knowledge there that simply doesn't exist? From some things that Doc has posted in the past, that stuff that I underlined above as well as other stuff, that is my impression.

The schools or individuals who are really good in kenpo, are they good because of natural talent, or because of solid martial knowledge and skill? If there is martial knowledge, did that come from sources outside kenpo? Doc has posted about how the early guys mostly came from backgrounds in other systems first, so after a certain historical date Mr. Parker never taught basics anymore (actually didn't really run a school of his own but rather just taught seminars at the franchise schools), I guess he assumed that those people would just rely on the basics that they had already learned outside of kenpo. But that's why there is no consistency with things like basics in kenpo.

These seem like legitimate questions, tho I don't know how to answers. It's more a question for people to reflect on and answer for themselves, I guess.

 

[ATACX GYM]

"Many contributed IDEAS for the manuals, but they were not IDEALS, but ideas. IDEALS were supposed to be creating by the school heads, based on the the IDEAS provided as a starting point reference, but you could do anything within the framework of the attack. I SAY AGAIN. THERE WERE NEVER ANY IDEALS, ONLY IDEAS."

Taken from the link you posted Ras. Thats all I need...lol. Just to clarify, *I* never said the ideal phase techs were ideal techs. If I did, please show me where, in this heap of a thread that I said that. My point, and I believe TF was making this point as well, is.....every Kenpo school around that I know of, teaches S&H. Its obviously the ideal phase base model that everyone uses. If it wasn't meant to be taught, then there're a slew of schools doing it all wrong I guess...lol. But I dont think thats the case.

What it seems like, is you're saying (and again this is a guess) is that all ideal phase techs suck. They wont work. But what I'm (you) doing, does. I believe this is the issue with what Chris and TF are saying.

As for what lessons it teaches...its now addressing an attack from a direction other than directly in front of you, like delayed sword, how to pin/attack at the same time, teaches marriage with gravity.

Truth is that before I knew about the history of the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS, I knew that the stuff masking as THEE SINGLE SOLE IP is simply dysfunctional...but I separated that from what I knew of Mr. Parker's writings. Years ago I stated that I read Infinite Insights Into Kenpo and what I read squarely contradicted what was being taught as The Ideal Phase today. Observe:

[video][video=youtube_share;6CQKW5QTJJU]http://youtu.be/6CQKW5QTJJU[/video][/video]


So I never hated The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS. I always hated what was called The IP now. I knew it wasn't right. Then Doc educated me further a few months ago and I shared that info with all of you here.


I think Doc was historically right. In his statement we see the sensible resolution of 2 complete opposites: Mister Parker was alleged to be a fearsome fighter with knowledge in multiple disciplines, who was in a state of constant evolution. From the Mitose-Chow influence to the Chinese Arts-infused with American practicality hybrid. Many students and black belts of his who rolled with him in one area of his phases left when he evolved into something else. Those who favored the more K.S. Chow and Japanese flavor of his art left when he began flowing toward the Chinese Arts. Etc. etc.

So if what Doc says is true? We can see at once how Mister Parker had to baby feed an American public techs that they were for the most part wholly unfamiliar with [ remember most people never heard of Karate in the early 1960s ] and he had to draw large numbers of people into his commercial vehicle so he can make a living. So he couldn't show them grappling and stuff that we see commonly in MMA. [ Remember, MMA took 14 years to catch on and that's in today's post-Bruce, post-Mr.Parker Era, current Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Tony Jaa Era...so imagine how hard it was back then. Sans internet, too, btw ].

We can also see why he taught The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS too. He needed to get people to think independently but he had to reach them where they are. They didn't know wth he was talking about and wth to do without him.

So what happened was people simply copied what Mr. Parker showed as AN EXAMPLE because they didn't understand what he was saying and doing. From years ago, I came to the conclusion that Mr. Parker was telling us to do stuff functionally and most Kenpoists weren't doing it. I was right...even before Doc furnished me with all the specifics proving that I was correct and edified me further on stuff that I had no idea about.



So. Doc told us truthfully that most Kenpo schools got the whole definition and process of The IP wrong. We can read that reality written in Mr. Parker's own hand...long before the trouble started. What you do with that info is up to you.

Now on to the Sword and Hammer thing...first and foremost? I didn't do it wrong. I followed the process as specifically written by Mr. Parker. Every step of the way. My Sword and Hammer is A idea that is MY GYM'S Ideal Technique. If you want to keep the more popular version [ even though it doesn't fit all of the steps of The Ideal Phase Analtyical Technique PROCESS, and thus isn't strictly qualified to be called a IP Tech] ? Go right on ahead. But keeping the version you prefer doesn't mean that I'm wrong to do the version that I prefer...MY Sword and Hammer...because I'm not doing YOUR Sword and Hammer.

I am, without a doubt, following The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS faithfully though. And it's that PROCESS which validates the expression that I choose. When my technique works exactly as shown? It's that reality that validates that I followed the PROCESS yielding the technique properly. Think of The Ideal Phase as Kenpo's Scientific Method [ Observation, Hypothesice, Experimentation, Conclusion ]. The results are far more reliable and exacting etc etc if you follow The Scientific Method, but The Scientific Method is NOT the results and the results are NOT The Scientific Method.

The most popular expression of each and every tech in Kenpo did not follow Kenpo's Scientific Method...The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS...but it claims that it did.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Truth is that before I knew about the history of the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS, I knew that the stuff masking as THEE SINGLE SOLE IP is simply dysfunctional...but I separated that from what I knew of Mr. Parker's writings. Years ago I stated that I read Infinite Insights Into Kenpo and what I read squarely contradicted what was being taught as The Ideal Phase today. Observe:

[video=youtube_share;6CQKW5QTJJU]http://youtu.be/6CQKW5QTJJU[/video]




So I never hated The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS. I always hated what was called The IP now. I knew it wasn't right. Then Doc educated me further a few months ago and I shared that info with all of you here.


I think Doc was historically right. In his statement we see the sensible resolution of 2 complete opposites: Mister Parker was alleged to be a fearsome fighter with knowledge in multiple disciplines, who was in a state of constant evolution. From the Mitose-Chow influence to the Chinese Arts-infused with American practicality hybrid. Many students and black belts of his who rolled with him in one area of his phases left when he evolved into something else. Those who favored the more K.S. Chow and Japanese flavor of his art left when he began flowing toward the Chinese Arts. Etc. etc.

So if what Doc says is true? We can see at once how Mister Parker had to baby feed an American public techs that they were for the most part wholly unfamiliar with [ remember most people never heard of Karate in the early 1960s ] and he had to draw large numbers of people into his commercial vehicle so he can make a living. So he couldn't show them grappling and stuff that we see commonly in MMA. [ Remember, MMA took 14 years to catch on and that's in today's post-Bruce, post-Mr.Parker Era, current Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Tony Jaa Era...so imagine how hard it was back then. Sans internet, too, btw ].

We can also see why he taught The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS too. He needed to get people to think independently but he had to reach them where they are. They didn't know wth he was talking about and wth to do without him.

So what happened was people simply copied what Mr. Parker showed as AN EXAMPLE because they didn't understand what he was saying and doing. From years ago, I came to the conclusion that Mr. Parker was telling us to do stuff functionally and most Kenpoists weren't doing it. I was right...even before Doc furnished me with all the specifics proving that I was correct and edified me further on stuff that I had no idea about.



So. Doc told us truthfully that most Kenpo schools got the whole definition and process of The IP wrong. We can read that reality written in Mr. Parker's own hand...long before the trouble started. What you do with that info is up to you.

.

K now I'm going on to Sword and Hammer on the next post...