Oh...you mean the question I've been answering in depth and in detail since page 2?
To be honest, we're on page 10, so.....lol
Anyways....that IMO, is the point thats trying to be made.
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Oh...you mean the question I've been answering in depth and in detail since page 2?
To be honest, we're on page 10, so.....lol
Anyways....that IMO, is the point thats trying to be made.
Chris. I indicated that I would answer your question about Sword and Hammer after I resolved the questions that were posed prior to your asking your question. I will supply you with a comprehensive answer regarding this matter shortly. In the interim? Your rudeness is neither appreciated nor necessary. I will return later today and give a powerful reply that will directly address each and every matter that you brought up.
Thank you.
AMANI..."peace"...
HEAD COACH RAS OF THE ATACX GYM
WHOSE Sword and Hammer are you asking about? As Doc said...THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. One of your gargantuan miscomprehensions is this simple fact. All of the rest of your conclusions are permanently toast due to your refusal to grasp this simple concept. The moment you accept this fact? You'll have a chance of asking one of many more correct questions, like:
Ras, what does YOUR Sword and Hammer teach? Why do you think it teaches such a thing? What qualifies YOUR Sword and Hammer as "Sword and Hammer"?
I would then answer...I already answered that. Go find the post on this thread where I went through this very question and answer session pages ago. I don't feel like reposting.
But I'll add a few other things for you:
There are reasons imho that the handsword and hammerfist were selected in my Gym and perhaps in others. The handsword is a weapon well fitted to striking the target of the throat and specific spots ON the throat from the initial angle traditionally taught and my subsequent experimentations very solidly showed that with proper training it can still strike the throat regardless of the position of your opponent. I can't speak for other teachers, but in my Gym there are 4 primary locations that we target with our handsword and later the hammer fist. These targets present themselves regardless of position, and they become more available for destruction as we manipulate our foe's body with our techs. Further there are specific nuerological responses that the combination of the handsword and hammerfist striking specific targets [ in my version those targets range from the throat to the groin to the kidney and liver and specific spots on the arm ] that are very important to learn and download at this rank in my Gym for further development and exploration and manipulation via technique as we progress further in my curriculum.
and there are very important ethical and Honor considerations in my Gym that we help the students to confront [ as we have already taught them this Code ] when we apply this tech. There's more...but I gtg.
And...What do you think the more common expression of Sword and Hammer is?
Oh...you mean the question I've been answering in depth and in detail since page 2?
Oh yeah Chris Parker. When you say that there's no 1 tech that resolves every problem? Not what I said. I do, however, teach using every single tech we practice...and that includes every tech in Kenpo...against every primary range of civilian LEO and security personnel combat and self-defense in a thoroughgoing fashion. Those ranges and the mandatory requirement to be able to flow through any permutation thereof are:
360 Degree Circle of Protection in each of the following ranges: Standing Clinch Seated Kneeling Ground Armed Multifight Armed Multifight CQB armed and unarmed inclusive of firearms escape rescue and escape and rescue and we include rolls breakfalls etc
I can use 1 technique that suffices for each and every one of these ranges. The fact that you don't is indicative of the limits in your training method, not the limits of self-defense itself.
Word I agree with you MJS. And yeah I think that you and I are essentially operating on similar principles...or at least harmonious principles. But what I'm saying is that if we're on page 10 and I've been answering that very question in depth and in detail since page 8? The questioners and readership need to take upon themselves the responsibility of comprehending the answers that they're being supplied with visavis their questions.
Oh yeah Chris Parker. When you say that there's no 1 tech that resolves every problem? Not what I said. I do, however, teach using every single tech we practice...and that includes every tech in Kenpo...against every primary range of civilian LEO and security personnel combat and self-defense in a thoroughgoing fashion. Those ranges and the mandatory requirement to be able to flow through any permutation thereof are:
360 Degree Circle of Protection in each of the following ranges: Standing Clinch Seated Kneeling Ground Armed Multifight Armed Multifight CQB armed and unarmed inclusive of firearms escape rescue and escape and rescue and we include rolls breakfalls etc
I can use 1 technique that suffices for each and every one of these ranges. The fact that you don't is indicative of the limits in your training method, not the limits of self-defense itself.
Sorry but that reads to me, that whether the guy punches, pushes, kicks or grabs, you could do S&H. Now, if you said that you would use 'ideas' from this tech or that tech, then I could agree with that. ie: Take 5 Swords, right round house punch. Spontaneous reaction drill, my opponent throws a right hook. I may step up and do and inital 5 swords block, but then follow up with a leg sweep. Not doing 5 swords, dont claim to be doing 5 swords...I'm using ideas from it.
evidence of reading miscomprehension which many of my detractors seem to specialize in.
Firstly, in discussing a 'better' version of Sword and Hammer without coming to an agreement about what criteria are required for a technique to actually be Sword and Hammer in the first place means we can't really discuss your approach... so it needs to be dealt with first. And, for the record, it's a question that has been there since my very first response to you, where I pointed out: "Then we get you changing the structure of the attack by keeping your opponent on your left shoulder, but having them grab with their left hand... which completely removes the attack that's actually seen in Sword and Hammer, as well as removing the targets, body positioning, and more, altering the timing and rhythm of the sequence entirely, and basically necessitating a completely different technique, which, to be blunt, is what you're doing. This is no longer the Yellow Belt Technique "Sword and Hammer" from the American Kempo system, as there are almost no aspects of it left, other than similar fists being used.""Your second version. Well, you start off saying it's nothing like what others would have been taught, and, well, yeah. Because you have barely included anything from the original, other than the name and certain fists. Other than that, tactically it's a completely different technique, rythmically it's a completely different technique, strategically it's a completely different technique, mechanically it's a completely different technique, philosophically it's a completely different technique... really, it's just a completely different technique."So from the very get-go it's been demonstrated that your understanding of what makes the technique what it is has been questionable, at least..
Originally Posted by ATACX GYM[ Uhhh...I teach my students how to defeat this kind of attack BEFORE they're a WHITE BELT. Observe:A. Bad guy grabs your right shoulder. No pushes or pulls. Cocks back fist.B. Pre-White Belt Level A...the newest of all new newbs...smartly executes a right upward block under the shoulder grabbing left hand of BG. This block is timed with the punch. You lift or disengage the grab and block the punch at the same time.C. Counterattack with reverse punch.How easy is that?""Honestly? I see quite a few issues there... and frankly, the regular Sword and Hammer I'd class as superior in a number of ways."
I cannot speak for whoever first crafted Sword and Hammer as a so-called IP Technique [ it wasn't Mr. Parker, as he fashioned the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS which lead to Sword and Hammer ]
F
Originally Posted by ATACX GYM[ Uhhh...I teach my students how to defeat this kind of attack BEFORE they're a WHITE BELT. Observe:
A. Bad guy grabs your right shoulder. No pushes or pulls. Cocks back fist.
B. Pre-White Belt Level A...the newest of all new newbs...smartly executes a right upward block under the shoulder grabbing left hand of BG. This block is timed with the punch. You lift or disengage the grab and block the punch at the same time.
C. Counterattack with reverse punch.
How easy is that?"
"Honestly? I see quite a few issues there... and frankly, the regular Sword and Hammer I'd class as superior in a number of ways."<--Chris Parker
Enumerate these problems, Chris.
Son, don't even consider that you can make any reference to my training. So far, from what I've seen of yours, there are some gigantic gaps in what you've been taught. And I do mean gigantic.
i am almost 100% certain that this is not true
the tracy's have this same technique, they call it pin step chop, they admit they learned it from ed parker who learned it from Chow.
the tracy's were among parkers first black belts, (preceeding Doc by about 5-10 years if i recall correctly) so it was being taught VERY early in the formulation of Ed parker's Kenpo
this is WAY before the so called "motion kenpo" or the "IP analytical process" was even in use
this is what i havnt said till know but someone needs to remind you of. the tracy's have versions of many of ed parkers techniques in their system.
this means the techniques pre-existed Doc, as he came AFTER the Tracy's left. Most of those techniques Parker learned from Chow, the Tracy's confirmed this.
so there was on at least some of the techniques, a set version before the motion kenpo thing in the late 60's and 70's
I have answered this numerous times. Your return to the more popular expression of this technique simply means that you're exercising your right to be obtuse.
However, for those of you who have PM'd me and emailed me in droves and who grasp what I'm talking about and for that part of Chris Parker which might actually grasp this explanation, here is what I offer you as a response:
I cannot speak for whoever first crafted Sword and Hammer as a so-called IP Technique [ it wasn't Mr. Parker, as he fashioned the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS which lead to Sword and Hammer ], but MY reasoning for how I came to the use of Sword and Hammer I already explained not only on KT but linked that explanation for those onsite.
I initially stated that at first I was severely put off by the nonfunctional craptasticness of the more common expression and eschewed the handsword initially for a heel palm. I called it at first HAMMER AND SALUTE. It worked very well. For years. And then one day a female student of mine got her long hair caught in a shoulder grab while sparring in class. She responded with HAMMER AND SALUTE...which freed her from the shoulder grasp, but her sparring partner still had her hair. She lost that match as a result. Then another student of mine...a guy...had a similar experience.
I went back to the Sword and Hammer and began looking past the way it was presented to me and began thinking of ways to use the tech in an actually functional way.
The moment I started that process, everything else fell into place.
I reinserted the handsword because with functional training, and instantly it yielded all sorts of benefits that the heel palm didn't. The heel palm is an excellent tech and it has its place, but the handsword in conjunction with the hammerfist yields a specific synergistic combo that is very salient to being grabbed PERIOD, and is amplified when you're striking arms that are half to fully extended. What are these benefits and all that good stuff? Well like I said...I can't speak for anyone else but MY studies and intensive practice have yielded the following data:
1. The handsword is not only able to strike 4 primary targets on the "tripod" of head/neck/shoulders that have the immediate result of causing predictable anatomical responses that weaken or release the grip of most people while simultaneously oftentimes taking them out of the fight, the handsword is better structurally shaped for the task of doing that work.
A handsword to your Adam's apple or carotid could end the fracas right there. Same with a handsword to the space between BG's ribs. If your opponent is too tall or the circumstances of combat remove the head and neck from being viable targets, go for the deltoids or back of the neck, liver or kidneys with the handsword.
You can oftentimes reach his arm. That's especially vital for us short folks. A stank funk nasty handsword to the triceps, brachialis, traps, or even the lats will really mess up the BG's day. Not only will you ruin his day...even if you're NOT taking him out of the fight with those shots, you will cause the BG to weaken his grip dramatically on you.
2. When you couple this knowledge with the Cover and Spin and apply it with the simultaneous deployment of the hammerfist to the outside of the forearm along the strip from wrist to the elbow, you see that the tricep is a target that is sitting wide open for you. Even if you're short like me or the woman that MJS was teaching. Well, the benefit of using the handsword over the heel palm here is that the heel palm hurts, shoots your opponent away from you and makes him turn your back to you. He's wide open for you to smash him with another attack or it can give you that extra precious second or three to get a head start running away.
The HANDSWORD applied to the triceps in this circumstance not only DRAMATICALLY weakens the grip, in combination with the hammerfist hammerblock combo it's almost certain to;
a) free you of your opponent's grasp
b) cause serious trauma to his arm in an area that is not well suited for dealing with the kind of shock that the handsword delivers.
c) increase the likelihood of 3 beneficial scenarios: taking your opponent's will to fight away, drop him and finish him, and/or the pain takes the offending grasping arm out of the fight either for the rest of the encounter or long enough for you to run or capitalize combatively on the options presented
d) Like the Heel Palm did, the handsword also propels your opponent away from you. It doesn't turn his back toward you as much as the Heel Palm does, but it delivers more trauma of a variety that isn't often doled out and which is oftentimes difficult for our opponents to deal with.
e) The handsword is more suited structurally for not only the strikes I already enumerated but for flowing smoothly into traps and pins and checks which all a continued unbroken barrage of strikes to be employed. The Heel Palm is good for that too but not as well for The Cover Out as it is for The Cover In.
There's more but I trust you get the point.
Essentially I considered the benefits of the application of the handsword, the facility that relative newbs would have in its application, and what benefits it has in conjunction with the strikes that complement it...in this case? The hammerfist.
I subjected the hammerfist to the same analysis and got similar results.
I then evaluated the same factors when selecting each step of my Sword and Hammer sequence. And I tested, am testing now, and continue to test these techs on the mat. I have made and will continue to make improvements in various areas...but the Sword and Hammer are staying in this tech in my Gym due to the mass of positive data resulting from the experience of myself, my fellow Coaches and my students and clients collective body of scrappin, research, and direct experience therewith.
I reinserted the handsword because with functional training, and instantly it yielded all sorts of benefits that the heel palm didn't.
The upward block is a full body technique requiring the coordination of breath with the legs drawing power from the ground or whatever stabilizing surface, shooting this power through the hips and upper torso, adding to this power with the rotation of the torso as the nonblocking hand draws up to a defensive position similar to that of a boxer's hands guarding his/her face, and the use of essentially the forearm shiver upon the forearm of the BG's grabbing arm.
You're not flapping your arm up like you're about to put deodorant on.
This tech has lots of power. It frequently disengages a grab all by itself [ it will definitely disengage the 'dead starfish hand' shown in most videos of the more common version of Sword and Hammer ] and even when it doesn't? The forearm shiver's impact delivered by the full body's power causes pain, disturbs our opponent's balance, causes a momentarily delay in the brain's processing of other data due to its distraction by the unexpected pain, and opens the BG up to a solid hit from the reverse punch. Its a high percentage, powerful tech.
I don't need to say anything...you said all that needs to be said when you demonstrated a complete miscomprehension of a crucial basic fundamental tech like the upward block. That is one of many times you have shown from your own mouth which of us has gigantic gaps in our training...and it's not me.
Ras, none of the above actually answers the question. It is a description of how you apply a couple of fists/weapons. It shows no understanding of the structure of techniques, nor does it answer what you feel is the required criteria for Sword and Hammer. So, again, complete failure.
Speaking of which....
When you post things like the above, the reading comprehension on the part of the readers isn't the issue....
Ah, now I wouldn't really compare it with Sword and Hammer, as it demonstrates a completely separate tactic... but that just brings us back to the initial question of what makes Sword and Hammer the technique of Sword and Hammer? As far as power, the further back the bad guy is, the less power. That's just simple biomechanics, Ras. Even at 3 o clock (as you guys term things...), it's rather limited, even when done as a "full body action" (which is the way we do everything, so was already taken into account).
You're kidding, right? You can't grasp the idea of a technique being a tactical approach to a problem, nor be able to indentify those tactics, yet you're saying that I have gaps in my training.... seriously, Ras, in all the time I've been reading your posts, you have been lacking. You have an idea, you have an approach, but it's built on rather false beliefs and incorrect, or incomplete understanding. I've given you a number of opportunities to prove me wrong, but you have completely failed to do so. Constantly and consistently.
chris. connect the dots man. There is no extra mystical reason behind the implementation of techniques other than their utility for certain kinds of situations and whether or not they can be applied effectively in other situations as well. Remember my Sword and Hammer videos? The flank attacks ranging from my right shoulder to my left and every area in between? I deployed my techs against Hockey Punch attacks from those areas because those attacks are common...especially around my way. I used to resolve the quandary that Hockey Punch attacks posed using HAMMER AND SALUTE. Snag. Hair pulling problems started bedeviling my students. Solution: apply Sword and Hammer functionally.
The process of doing so shows everything you asked about. It goes to the structure of the techniques in the literal sense. It goes into the WHYs of technique selection and application. It points out the synergistic benefits of applying these two specific techs in this way...biomechanics and stuff. Like I said, I don't feel like getting into another comprehensive answer of a question I already answered both on this site and when I supplied a link with a more comprehensive answer on KenpoTalk.com.
There are other ways to address this attack, and my students and clients have already learned ways of getting this attack prior to their receiving their White Belts. Like I told you already. But this tech...which is called more formally ATACX GYM KENPO KARATE'S SWORD AND HAMMER RADIUS...works like a charm in real world situations and I like it. So do my students. It also has the added advantage of applying unusual attacks using unusual body weaponry coming at unusual angles while applying unusual tactics and striking anatomical targets correctly...something else that is unusual. The BG would have a heck of a time defending this barrage because it's unusual, adroitly applied, and devastatingly effective.
Ras, none of the above actually answers the question. It is a description of how you apply a couple of fists/weapons. It shows no understanding of the structure of techniques, nor does it answer what you feel is the required criteria for Sword and Hammer. So, again, complete failure.
Ah, now I wouldn't really compare it with Sword and Hammer, as it demonstrates a completely separate tactic... but that just brings us back to the initial question of what makes Sword and Hammer the technique of Sword and Hammer? As far as power, the further back the bad guy is, the less power. That's just simple biomechanics, Ras. Even at 3 o clock (as you guys term things...), it's rather limited, even when done as a "full body action" (which is the way we do everything, so was already taken into account).