Support Choice?

[Bill Mattocks]

Obviously planned parenthoods aren't hospitals. @@ Christian groups run crisis pregnancy "clinics". I don't approve of these clinics anymore than I approve of catholic hospitals. It would be inappropriate if there were muslim hospitals or buddhist hospitals. Religion has no place in medicince, medical centers or clinics of any kind.

Really?

That's odd to me. Historically, most hospitals were founded and run by religious orders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital

Historically, hospitals were often founded and funded by religious orders or charitable individuals and leaders. Today, hospitals are largely staffed by professional physicians, surgeons, and nurses, whereas in the past, this work was usually performed by the founding religious orders or by volunteers. However, there are various Catholic religious orders, such as the Alexians and the Bon Secours Sisters, which still focus on hospital ministry today.

In the United States the traditional hospital is a non-profit hospital, usually sponsored by a religious denomination. One of the earliest of these "almshouses" in what would become the United States was started by William Penn in Philadelphia in 1713. These hospitals are tax-exempt due to their charitable purpose, but provide only a minimum of charitable medical care. They are supplemented by large public hospitals in major cities and research hospitals often affiliated with a medical school. The largest public hospital system in America is the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation, which includes Bellevue Hospital, the oldest U.S. hospital, affiliated with New York University Medical School. In the late twentieth century, chains of for-profit hospitals arose in the United States. The decline in the membership of religious orders has changed the status of Catholic hospitals.[36]

What's really funny is that it is a Catch-22. Many criticize religious people for not living by our own principles, like giving alms to the poor, healing the sick, and so on. Yet when we do, we're excoriated for it. Atheists ***** and moan because so-called 'Catholic' hospitals aren't Catholic ENOUGH, while at the same time complaining that they are Catholic AT ALL.

Well, let me put it this way. Religious, including Catholics, do a lot to help. But yes, we do it based on our own moral values and standards, and we don't apologize for that. If you think that's terrible, that's your problem, not ours.

But I get a little tired of hearing it. Oh, the Catholics are horrible, their priests are all child molesters, their Pope was a Nazi, and they don't live by their own principles. And when we DO live by our own principles, well, that's terrible too.

You hate Catholics. We get it. Thanks for playing.

 

[billc]

Yes, they blame all priests for being molestors or those who protect them, and yet they send their children to public schools everyday. If you compare the rate of child molestation by teachers to that of priests, all those complaining about catholicism would be forced to pull their kids out of public schools and home school them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes, they blame all priests for being molestors or those who protect them, and yet they send their children to public schools everyday. If you compare the rate of child molestation by teachers to that of priests, all those complaining about catholicism would be forced to pull their kids out of public schools and home school them.

And let's not even start talking about martial arts instructors. I'm sorry, but all you have to do is Google "karate arrested" and there's a new story EVERY SINGLE DAY. A lot more predator martial arts instructors being arrested than priests; but we just refuse to talk about that here; we pretend it is not happening. Sound familiar at all? Let's all point out the problem with Catholics.

 

[billc]

In my life as a martial artist I have known three instructors who were arrested for some form of inappropriate contact with children. I also have known a lot more who were great people. Should people stop teaching martial arts?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In my life as a martial artist I have known three instructors who were arrested for some form of inappropriate contact with children. I also have known a lot more who were great people. Should people stop teaching martial arts?

Well, that's exactly the point. I think any martial artist here would say that you cannot judge martial arts by the instructors who have done horrible things, and that there are a lot of positive effects of martial arts than negative - and I'd agree. But ask them to apply that same logic to a group they already dislike, say, Catholics, and nope, the entire Catholic institution is evil from bottom to top, and you can't even have a discussion about anything with the word 'Catholic' in it without them running off at the mouth with their hatred and dislike of organized religion in general, and Catholics in particular. Many of these, of course, are on MY side of the fence when it comes to pointing out that you can't paint all Islam with the same brush because of a tiny fraction of a minority that are militant or terrorists. I guess it all comes down to how you see your world. If you dislike group A, then anything bad they've ever done is proof enough to hate them with an undying passion.

 

[billc]

Goodnight Bill. Good posts on the topic.

 

[Monroe]

Really?

That's odd to me. Historically, most hospitals were founded and run by religious orders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital





What's really funny is that it is a Catch-22. Many criticize religious people for not living by our own principles, like giving alms to the poor, healing the sick, and so on. Yet when we do, we're excoriated for it. Atheists ***** and moan because so-called 'Catholic' hospitals aren't Catholic ENOUGH, while at the same time complaining that they are Catholic AT ALL.

Well, let me put it this way. Religious, including Catholics, do a lot to help. But yes, we do it based on our own moral values and standards, and we don't apologize for that. If you think that's terrible, that's your problem, not ours.

But I get a little tired of hearing it. Oh, the Catholics are horrible, their priests are all child molesters, their Pope was a Nazi, and they don't live by their own principles. And when we DO live by our own principles, well, that's terrible too.

You hate Catholics. We get it. Thanks for playing.

Historically schools were often run by religious sects. Now we have public schools. Every child has a right to non-religious school. The difference being, in some areas your choices are the catholic hospital or the catholic hospital. Or in an emergency only the Catholic hospital is in close proximity. That shouldn't be the situation. None of the hospitals should be catholic.

I don't give a crap what catholics do or don't do within their churches. I'm not sending my kids to church so I don't need to worry about your priests and what not. I care that when a religious groups pushes their way into medicine and as employers, they demand that patients and employee's live by their morals. I don't find that acceptable.

 

[Monroe]

Yes, they blame all priests for being molestors or those who protect them, and yet they send their children to public schools everyday. If you compare the rate of child molestation by teachers to that of priests, all those complaining about catholicism would be forced to pull their kids out of public schools and home school them.

I actually did research homeschooling and considered it. Excellent outcomes with good homeschooling communities to work with. But really, the most anti-catholic people I know are those who grew up in the catholic church. I'm pretty indifferent to catholicism, I haven't had personally good or bad experiences. I have just have issues when religions have too much influence on the public domain.

 

[ballen0351]

Ive been a cop for 10 years. Ive met alot of injured people and never once has someone asked me who runs the hospital or dont send me to that christian hospital. Most people are greatful. But its easy for you to bash them when you sitting comfortably in front of your keyboard I'd bet you'd sing a different tune when a catholic hospital saved you or your families lives

Historically schools were often run by religious sects. Now we have public schools. Every child has a right to non-religious school. The difference being, in some areas your choices are the catholic hospital or the catholic hospital. Or in an emergency only the Catholic hospital is in close proximity. That shouldn't be the situation. None of the hospitals should be catholic.

I don't give a crap what catholics do or don't do within their churches. I'm not sending my kids to church so I don't need to worry about your priests and what not. I care that when a religious groups pushes their way into medicine and as employers, they demand that patients and employee's live by their morals. I don't find that acceptable.

 

[Monroe]

Ive been a cop for 10 years. Ive met alot of injured people and never once has someone asked me who runs the hospital or dont send me to that christian hospital. Most people are greatful. But its easy for you to bash them when you sitting comfortably in front of your keyboard I'd bet you'd sing a different tune when a catholic hospital saved you or your families lives

If it wasn't a catholic hospital, the public would find a way to fund a public hospital.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Historically schools were often run by religious sects. Now we have public schools. Every child has a right to non-religious school. The difference being, in some areas your choices are the catholic hospital or the catholic hospital. Or in an emergency only the Catholic hospital is in close proximity. That shouldn't be the situation. None of the hospitals should be catholic.

I don't give a crap what catholics do or don't do within their churches. I'm not sending my kids to church so I don't need to worry about your priests and what not. I care that when a religious groups pushes their way into medicine and as employers, they demand that patients and employee's live by their morals. I don't find that acceptable.

First, if you accept freedom of religion, you have to accept that some religions tell them to 'do good works', including feeding, clothing, and housing the homeless and taking in orphans, as well as providing medical care. If you don't accept that, then you don't accept religious freedom.

Second, oh yeah, how dare those nasty Christians try to help society by providing food, clothes, shelter and medical care. The bastards.

And third, as I've said, I find it really funny, not to mention hypocritical, that when Christians don't provide ENOUGH food, clothing, shelter, and medical care, they're criticized for that, too.

But ultimately, Christians and other religious organizations do a lot of good in the world. Sorry you don't like it. No, I take it back. I'm not sorry you don't like it. I think your attitude is sick and warped.

 

[Big Don]

If it wasn't a catholic hospital, the public would find a way to fund a public hospital.

I'd love to see the actual amount of money the dreaded Christians give to charity worldwide each year matched by any 10 governments.
Those bastards are always doing nice things and expecting nothing more than a thank you.

 

[billc]

Actually, they don't even expect a thank you. They do it out of the kindness in their hearts and a need to help people. A polite thank you is nice though.

 

[Tez3]

Just an aside...here we usually say Roman Catholics but I notice it's always 'Catholics' on here, are you just shortening it or do you not use 'Roman'?

 

[Big Don]

Just an aside...here we usually say Roman Catholics but I notice it's always 'Catholics' on here, are you just shortening it or do you not use 'Roman'?

Great question. I have no idea, but, anyone who claims to be able to differentiate between each and every denomination of Christianity is either a liar or a fool.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just an aside...here we usually say Roman Catholics but I notice it's always 'Catholics' on here, are you just shortening it or do you not use 'Roman'?

When I say 'Catholic', I generally mean the Roman Catholic Church unless I specify otherwise. Although there are many churches that are 'Catholic', including those in communion with the Holy See and those associated with the Eastern Orthodox or other rites, in the USA, the Roman Catholic church is the largest 'Catholic' component.

 

[Monroe]

First, if you accept freedom of religion, you have to accept that some religions tell them to 'do good works', including feeding, clothing, and housing the homeless and taking in orphans, as well as providing medical care. If you don't accept that, then you don't accept religious freedom.

Second, oh yeah, how dare those nasty Christians try to help society by providing food, clothes, shelter and medical care. The bastards.

And third, as I've said, I find it really funny, not to mention hypocritical, that when Christians don't provide ENOUGH food, clothing, shelter, and medical care, they're criticized for that, too.

But ultimately, Christians and other religious organizations do a lot of good in the world. Sorry you don't like it. No, I take it back. I'm not sorry you don't like it. I think your attitude is sick and warped.

I've never criticised a religious group for not giving enough.

How would you respond if your neighbourhood hospital was Seikh? Would you feel comfortable that your medical choices were limited to a religion that you didn't subscribe to? Other religions help the needy.

I think you have difficult time accepting that not everyone wants their medical choices controlled by your religious beliefs.

 

[Cryozombie]

Historically schools were often run by religious sects. Now we have public schools. Every child has a right to non-religious school. The difference being, in some areas your choices are the catholic hospital or the catholic hospital. Or in an emergency only the Catholic hospital is in close proximity. That shouldn't be the situation. None of the hospitals should be catholic.

Wow. This ties right in with something I posted in another thread where there is this misconceived notion that "Freedom of Religion" really means "Freedom From Religion".

 

[Monroe]

Actually, they don't even expect a thank you. They do it out of the kindness in their hearts and a need to help people. A polite thank you is nice though.

I don't need to thank them. Aside from showing up to weddings and a funeral, I haven't had need from a Catholic church. But I have received social services provided by my tax dollars in Canada and my taxes in the UK. Seems religious people are happy to pay tithes to a religion that only gives social funds strictly according to their rules. But the idea of paying taxes to do the same work but not according to their set of rules, they get their knickers in a twist.

 

[Monroe]

Wow. This ties right in with something I posted in another thread where there is this misconceived notion that "Freedom of Religion" really means "Freedom From Religion".

So you're A-okay with all the schools in your neighbourhood becoming Pagan? It shouldn't bother you if the majority of people in your country are Pagan right?