Suicide

[celtic_crippler]

What if they don't want your help? Should you force it on them?

What about chemical imbalances? Today's science really doesn't know how to help these people. They've just observed that some combinations of drugs seem to help some with serious mental illness; including depression. At the end of the day it's really a crap-shoot.

Again, the question beg's to be answered: are you really considering what they want or is it more about what you want?

Why is suicide such a big deal to Westerners? We believe life is precious, but it's rarely been addressed as to whether that means life in general or the quality of life one lives.

Who feels that it doesn't matter what your quality of life is, you should never end it?

Who feels that quality matters more than how long you live?

 

[BrandiJo]

when a person is to the point that they want to end their life they lose the ability to make valid judgments. That is why we can put them in a hospital on medical holds. Most people when competent don't on a whim decide to kill them selfs, that is why i believe we should offer and make them get help when they may say they do not want or need help. Making an attempt on your life means you need help and i am thankful that we can make them stay in a place and get treatment even if they do not wish it.` We do not have all the answers but we sure have alot of options to help people, one med may not work for you but another might or maybe you just need a friend to talk to. Either way we have a way to help we can offer up hundreds of pills that i am sure, at least one combo will work. I think that in most cases they want to live a happy life and they have just lost that path and once they are back on that path they will be glad they did not end their life.

And quility of life is key, that is why i am for terminally ill people being able to end their life, and againt depression being a reason to end your life, because there is a way to help the depressed it just has to be found and accepted.

 

[Archangel M]

The problem with the "do as you want as long as you harm nobody else part"...what about the "harm" it does to those who love you? And another, "selfish" part, The burden you place on the people who have to clean up the mess you leave. You body doesnt magically pick its self up and bury itself.

 

[celtic_crippler]

when a person is to the point that they want to end their life they lose the ability to make valid judgments. That is why we can put them in a hospital on medical holds. Most people when competent don't on a whim decide to kill them selfs, that is why i believe we should offer and make them get help when they may say they do not want or need help. Making an attempt on your life means you need help and i am thankful that we can make them stay in a place and get treatment even if they do not wish it.` We do not have all the answers but we sure have alot of options to help people, one med may not work for you but another might or maybe you just need a friend to talk to. Either way we have a way to help we can offer up hundreds of pills that i am sure, at least one combo will work. I think that in most cases they want to live a happy life and they have just lost that path and once they are back on that path they will be glad they did not end their life.

And quility of life is key, that is why i am for terminally ill people being able to end their life, and againt depression being a reason to end your life, because there is a way to help the depressed it just has to be found and accepted.

To clarify:

So you feel that if someone wants to end their life and they aren't facing a mortal illness there's no possible way they could be making a sound decision to do so? Therefore, it's okay to force your help on them?

 

[celtic_crippler]

The problem with the "do as you want as long as you harm nobody else part"...what about the "harm" it does to those who love you? And another, "selfish" part, The burden you place on the people who have to clean up the mess you leave. You body doesnt magically pick its self up and bury itself.

Regardless of how you die, your body won't pick itself up and bury itself.
By that logic, dying in general is a burden to the living.

To reiterate: death by any means causes mourning to those who love the deceased in most Western cultures. The method in which one dies does not change that. Would you agree?

It is easy to argue that if one really takes a look at why one is upset concerning the loss of a loved one, it's usually because one will miss the deceased being alive and what they contributed to one's own life.

Considering that is more concerned with the wants and needs of the one mourning than that of the deceased, it is indeed a selfish act. This is proven in the many posts against suicide that state "What about the family/survivors?"

That's not to say that committing suicide is not a selfish act, but to say that the reasons against it as stated previously are also selfish.

My point is that your life belongs to you and what you do with it is ultimately your decision. I have no right to tell you what to do with it, though I can ask that you consider how it will affect me/others by what you do with it.

This argument is not necessarily an endorsement for suicide, but rather an argument for one's individual right to do with one's life as one pleases.

 

[Archangel M]

Tell that to the person who has to find your body next to the note. Cut you down from the rafters or wash the blood from the carpet. If you die of natural causes, its "natural", you didnt impose a burden intentionally. If you leave a rotting corpse in your bedroom next to your note and an empty pill bottle for your loved one to find and clean up after. YOU INTENTIONALLY DID THAT TO THEM!

Dont tell me there is no difference between dying and suicide.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

When I was depressed: I DID NOT WANT HELP! I wanted to die! I just wanted it to end, for the pain to be OVER! But I did get help... and now I'm glad I did. I teach kids at a karate summer camp, I take care of my animals, I help my friends through their tough times. I love life! I love the God who gave it to me! People who have a mental illness are ILL... they need TREATMENT. That's how it goes.

My mother regrets trying to end her life. She, too, has learned to love life. Don't tell us that people should be left alone to do as they please. We were ILL... we weren't thinking straight... and now that we are, we're glad we got help.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Tell that to the person who has to find your body next to the note. Cut you down from the rafters or wash the blood from the carpet. If you die of natural causes, its "natural", you didnt impose a burden intentionally. If you leave a rotting corpse in your bedroom next to your note and an empty pill bottle for your loved one to find and clean up after. YOU INTENTIONALLY DID THAT TO THEM!

Dont tell me there is no difference between dying and suicide.

How do you honestly know that?

Based on what's been found in the note and what was known about the INDIVIDUAL, that may actually be the case; they wanted a "loved one" to find the body. I would agree, that's a pretty messed up thing to do but is that really grounds to tell somene else what they can and can not do with their life?

To say that's the case in every instance is untrue. Consider entertaining the thought that someone may just want to die and the thought of "who" finds them is irrelevent to them.

Don't misinterpret my point. What you say is indeed a horrible thing, but try to disregard emotion for a moment and apply logic to the subject.

Consider this:

If you accept that no one has ownership of their life, then that opens a much more horrible door into other areas that could rob you further of additional rights.

Most people that "try" to kill themselves are "asking" for help. Most that succeed are not. They simply do not want to live any longer. Just as it is their right to make that decision, it is also their right to suffer the consequences of that decision. That ideal, in its purest essence, is freedom....is liberty.

If you want to argue that there is harm caused to others in excess of any other death, I would be glad to debate that point further. I do not accept; however, the idea of allowing another to have power over my life. The governmnet does too much of that already IMHO.

When I was depressed: I DID NOT WANT HELP! I wanted to die! I just wanted it to end, for the pain to be OVER! But I did get help... and now I'm glad I did. I teach kids at a karate summer camp, I take care of my animals, I help my friends through their tough times. I love life! I love the God who gave it to me! People who have a mental illness are ILL... they need TREATMENT. That's how it goes.

My mother regrets trying to end her life. She, too, has learned to love life. Don't tell us that people should be left alone to do as they please. We were ILL... we weren't thinking straight... and now that we are, we're glad we got help.

I'm glad things worked out the way you wanted and you are now happy.

Apply the same logic to your current situation though. What if someone decided that you're not thinking straight now? What if they decided your current actions were inappropriate even though you feel no harm is being caused to anyone else through those actions?

For instance, teaching kids martial arts in their opinion is training them to be killers and that is simply unacceptable; having those kids do such violent things! Kids should be kids! That means playing in the sandbox, not fighting....how AWFUL!

So they rally others to their way of thinking, lobby their law-makers, and pass a law that not only can you not teach martial arts to kids, but it is illegal to practice martial arts individually because it is too violent.

Sound silly? Far-fetched? It's happened before. Where do you draw the line where individual rights are concerned?

A life is a valuable thing, but at the end of the day I feel it should belong to the one that owns it.

...simply attempting to present a different perspective beyond the emotional realm.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

For instance, teaching kids martial arts in their opinion is training them to be killers and that is simply unacceptable; having those kids do such violent things! Kids should be kids! That means playing in the sandbox, not fighting....how AWFUL!

So they rally others to their way of thinking, lobby their law-makers, and pass a law that not only can you not teach martial arts to kids, but it is illegal to practice martial arts individually because it is too violent.

Sound silly? Far-fetched? It's happened before. Where do you draw the line where individual rights are concerned?

Yes, it does, and let me tell you why. Depression can be scientifically proven by looking at levels of chemicals in the brain. It IS an imbalance. While it cannot be proven that every child I teach grows up to be a killer. They are annoying, to be sure, but I doubt that a significant percentage, if any, will grow up to be killers. Of course, I have been proven wrong before, so please, feel free to prove me wrong.

 

[Archangel M]

Talk philosophy and logic all you want, the reality of suicide is something altogether different. Its NOT something that effects just one person or is a burden on the suicidal subject alone.

 

[jks9199]

I've responded to more suicides and suicide attempts than I care to think about. Additionally, I knew about 4 or 5 people who committed suicide by the time I graduated high school... and even more who tried. I've also had my share of natural death calls. There is simply no comparison between even the most unexpected and surprising natural death and suicide. Suicide is a bomb of devastation dumped on the family; very few families come through a suicide without significant problems and intervention.

 

[theletch1]

My wife's mother called us early this morning. One of my wife's cousins hanged himself yesterday. He was at a party, excused himself and after being gone long enough to draw attention folks went looking. They found him in the basement. Odd that he'd choose that particular place and time for that. I dunno. I've had friends commit suicide before. There were always signals but we never saw them until it was too late. It's just not something you ever really expect from someone.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

That's so sad... I'm not saying that this was his intention, but some people WANT to make others feel bad. They want them to regret ever ignoring them, or making fun of them, etc. That's the worst reason I can think of to kill oneself...

 

[theletch1]

That's so sad... I'm not saying that this was his intention, but some people WANT to make others feel bad. They want them to regret ever ignoring them, or making fun of them, etc. That's the worst reason I can think of to kill oneself...

Yeah, my wife and I discussed that. One of the guys that I used to train kempo with had a business the did crime scene clean up and he did a lot of suicide clean ups. He was telling me about the differences in those suicides that were sparked by rage and the type that you were talking about. Sad, truly, that folks get to the point of utter and complete hopelessness.

 

[Jenna]

I think suicide is the biggest tragedy of our particular western society. Depression and the drive to suicide stem from what are at their most basic, really simple neurological imbalances. Yet no one in the midst of depression can be told this. Nor should anyone expect that such explication could ever make their suffering less severe. But herein lies the tragedy. Because those feelings of having nothing left to live for are mere illogical misinterpretations.

For those who "attempt" suicide as an attention-seeking device, the game, of course is entirely different. Here though, I am solely referring to those whose mental state is such that they are compelled to see (and should be absolutely absolved for so seeing) their circumstance as dire. SSRIs, diazepam and prozac and whatnot are NOT the answer however. I only wish there were simple drugs to fix an essentially simply neurochemical problem. Because as any depression sufferer knows, from the heart of the bleakness, there is no simple path out.. The psysiological reality is, or should be so much easier to bring back to proper equilibrium. A complex issue. Family doctors are generally awfully equipped for handling either side: the psychological or the neurological. This is our tragedy.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Kacey]

I think suicide is the biggest tragedy of our particular western society. Depression and the drive to suicide stem from what are at their most basic, really simple neurological imbalances. Yet no one in the midst of depression can be told this. Nor should anyone expect that such explication could ever make their suffering less severe. But herein lies the tragedy. Because those feelings of having nothing left to live for are mere illogical misinterpretations.

Actually, people in the bottom depths of depression rarely attempt suicide; they don't usually have the energy or the ability to formulate a plan. It is, sadly, people who are coming out of depression who are the most likely to commit suicide - they remember all too clearly how badly they felt recently, and have the energy to stop themselves from feeling that badly again by committing suicide - but not the foresight to realize that they feel less badly (not better, just less badly) than in the recent past.

For those who "attempt" suicide as an attention-seeking device, the game, of course is entirely different. Here though, I am solely referring to those whose mental state is such that they are compelled to see (and should be absolutely absolved for so seeing) their circumstance as dire. SSRIs, diazepam and prozac and whatnot are NOT the answer however. I only wish there were simple drugs to fix an essentially simply neurochemical problem. Because as any depression sufferer knows, from the heart of the bleakness, there is no simple path out.. The psysiological reality is, or should be so much easier to bring back to proper equilibrium. A complex issue. Family doctors are generally awfully equipped for handling either side: the psychological or the neurological. This is our tragedy.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Psychoactive medications are a tool that allow people the opportunity to deal with something other than the deep dark depths of their depression. They are not a cure-all, as much as people would like them to be, and the side effects are often worse, at least in the perception of the person taking them, than the illnesses they are intended to ameliorate. Too many people take the drugs, feel better, don't see their doctor/psychiatrist regularly, don't go to therapy (if even prescribed) - and, feeling better, stop taking their medications, and don't have the resilience to continue without the drugs... falling back into the problems the drugs were supposed to help them with, while they learned to avoid as much as they could.

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic129.htm

Mortality/Morbidity

The morbidity of the depression is difficult to quantify. The lethality of depression, however, is measurable and is the result of completed suicide, which is the ninth leading reported cause of death in the United States.

In 2005, 1.4% of all deaths worldwide were attributed to suicide. The real number is unknown since underreporting is predictably significant. Suicide is estimated to be the eighth leading cause of death in all age ranges.

Almost all people who kill themselves intentionally have a diagnosable mental disorder with or without substance abuse, which in itself, is often a result of attempted self-treatment for the symptoms of depression. Approximately two thirds of individuals who complete suicide have seen a physician within a month of their death.

http://www.rochester.edu/UCC/help/info/depression.html

The Problem of Suicide
Suicide is the second leading cause of death in young people. Each year in the U.S., approximately five thousand individuals between the ages of 15 and 24 take their own life. A major cause of suicide is mental illness, very commonly depression. Others who are not suffering from depression are overwhelmed by painful emotions and see death as the only way out. Most of those who die could have been helped. An individual considering suicide frequently confides in a friend, who may be able to convince the person to seek treatment. When the risk is high, concerned friends and relatives should seek professional guidance.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think there are some excellent points on both sides of this debate...