SubLevel Four Article # 4

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
The highest expression of martial arts skill and ethics has always been in the most difficult aspects of the art. That is the ability to subdue and or control without significant injury to you or your opponent.

As stated in the American Kenpo ethical creed, "right or wrong" can be and is a personal decision at the moment that can only be made by you for only you will suffer the joys or consequences of your own actions.

My students are taught ethical answers to self defense in a modern world that is more than effective. Anything more is there responsibility.

I like it!
I would guess though, that a good part of the training would go toward, instilling a stronger sense of right or wrong.
Especially with your Law Enforcement background, you would be strongly promoting the idea of 'Court Defensible', wouldn't you?

I have read the article in Martial Arts magazine, and quite liked the "or not" comment when referring to level three, in your curriculum.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I like it!
I would guess though, that a good part of the training would go toward, instilling a stronger sense of right or wrong.
Especially with your Law Enforcement background, you would be strongly promoting the idea of 'Court Defensible', wouldn't you?

I have read the article in Martial Arts magazine, and quite liked the "or not" comment when referring to level three, in your curriculum.

--Dave

:asian:

Absolutely. We live in a very litigious society, and if you can sue McDonald's for making you fat, somebody will sue you for sure for kicking their a$$. We approach everything with a strong understanding of Penal Law in California.

I'm constantly reminded of an associate officer who got in a scuffle off duty with a junkie who grabbed his gun. When they wrestled for the weapon the junkie was killed when he did a reversal and the junkie pulled the triger and shot himself. The officer was a retired L.A.P.D. medal of valor recipient, and a U.S. Marshal. He was convicted of voluntary manslaughter and is in his 5th year in an 8 year sentence in state prison. Need I say more?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I have read the article in Martial Arts magazine, and quite liked the "or not" comment when referring to level three, in your curriculum.

Oh you caught that. Good obs. But these are levels of study that don't come easy or from exploring. Very specific information and study that must be taught under competent scrutiny and very correct body mechanics. Anybody can stick their fingers in someones eyes with no training. Soooo where's the skill we're suppose to have?

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Oh you caught that. Good obs. But these are levels of study that don't come easy or from exploring. Very specific information and study that must be taught under competent scrutiny and very correct body mechanics. Anybody can stick their fingers in someones eyes with no training. Soooo where's the skill we're suppose to have?

Isn't the real skill, in the walking away?

Or maybe, in the not being there in the first place.............

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Isn't the real skill, in the walking away?

Or maybe, in the not being there in the first place.............

--Dave

:asian:

Of course when that option is available, but you don't always have a choice.

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Doc
but you don't always have a choice.

Right...

So poke'em in the eyes and kick'em in the ding ding (obscure Eddie Murphy "RAW" reference)...instead of trying to anatomically align your foot to stick in their rectum...talk about needing some PAM!!!

jb :asian: :rofl:

just teasing...

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Right...

So poke'em in the eyes and kick'em in the ding ding (obscure Eddie Murphy "RAW" reference)...instead of trying to anatomically align your foot to stick in their rectum...talk about needing some PAM!!!

jb :asian: :rofl:

just teasing...

Hey to quote Ed Parker, "Do whatcha gotta do brudder."

 

[cdhall]

Doc,

I saw this Martial Art Magazine briefly a few weeks ago but when I finally went back to buy a copy, it was gone. I missed it. The new issue is out.

Can you get me a copy or sell me the article(s)?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Isn't the real skill, in the walking away?

Or maybe, in the not being there in the first place.............

--Dave

:asian:

It is "A" skill not the "REAL" skill. Sometimes walking away to the aggressive is perceived as weakness, making them even more aggressive.

When these people bring the aggression to you, "not being there" is also not an option either. And as we all know, they can bring it anywhere, even your home.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by lonekimono
sorry it's always been there, just have to know what it is
but it's always been there,
i'm sorry doc but i have to say i leaned about this back in the late 70's and have been keeping it going in my school.:asian:

Hey I was doing some research and ran into this post.

Don't be "sorry" bro, just keep teaching. Many of the kenpo guys because the information is omitted from their training assume it doesn't exist in kenpo. And their right. It isn't in commercial kenpo, but neither are manipulation and proper basics. I always thought it was the height of arrogance to suggest that if you don't have personal knowledge of it no one else in your art, including it's founder doesn't either. I guess these people assume they know all Ed Parker knew. I guess that's why we have so many "masters" in their thirties, and "grandmasters" in their forties. Maybe we'll get together one day, but you gotta promise not to hurt me.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
It is "A" skill not the "REAL" skill. Sometimes walking away to the aggressive is perceived as weakness, making them even more aggressive.

When these people bring the aggression to you, "not being there" is also not an option either. And as we all know, they can bring it anywhere, even your home.

Dammit Doc, I was trying to be deep and philosophical, and you had to come along with your big PAM BAM and shoot me in the butt!



And just because you're right doesn't make me any less deep, I think..... Umm.. I'm gonna go now.

--Dave

:rofl:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Dammit Doc, I was trying to be deep and philosophical, and you had to come along with your big PAM BAM and shoot me in the butt!



And just because you're right doesn't make me any less deep, I think..... Umm.. I'm gonna go now.

--Dave

:rofl:

Sorry.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Doc
May issue of "Martial Arts Magazine" from CFW Publishing (Inside Kung Fu), gives a decent explanation of some aspects of Sublevel Four Kenpo.

For those who seem to be having trouble finding the magazine or are interested in back issues, you can contact the editor and give him your opinion of the magazine, etc at:

[email protected]

 

[Dan]

I'd like to thank Dr. Chapel and everyone else who has contributed to this awesome discussion. It has really opened my eyes to a subject that as a junior practitioner I find fascinating and also very much a mystery.

At the junior level we very occasionally get to see and feel a little sub 4 material over in the UK through "off syllabus" work at seminars when our senior instructor gives a taster demonstration of material he has picked up from time with Dr. Chapel.

I have felt the "disassociation" :erg: after a sequence of strikes, I can't really remember what happened but I can remember the thought going through my mind that if there was one more strike in the sequence I might soil myself

I am a believer, no real pain suffered, no significant after effects, but I was as helpless as a baby at the time! It was like a roller coaster, pant filling at the time, but after the demonstration most of us were back in the queue waiting to go again

I have a question.
Is it possible to condition oneself to sub level 4 strikes and is is sensible to do so?

Thanks again for everyone that has helped put together one of the most informative kenpo posts on the web!

Respectfully,

Dan

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Dan
I'd like to thank Dr. Chapel and everyone else who has contributed to this awesome discussion. It has really opened my eyes to a subject that as a junior practitioner I find fascinating and also very much a mystery.

Thank you for the kind words.

At the junior level we very occasionally get to see and feel a little sub 4 material over in the UK through "off syllabus" work at seminars when our senior instructor gives a taster demonstration of material he has picked up from time with Dr. Chapel.

I really wish I had more time with him. He's a bright and talented man.

I have felt the "disassociation" :erg: after a sequence of strikes, I can't really remember what happened but I can remember the thought going through my mind that if there was one more strike in the sequence I might soil myself

That is typical and it is hard to describe what is happening to you.

I am a believer, no real pain suffered, no significant after effects, but I was as helpless as a baby at the time! It was like a roller coaster, pant filling at the time, but after the demonstration most of us were back in the queue waiting to go again

It is different than blunt force striking, and in demos it doesn't really hurt but can be extremely disorienting, but that doesn't mean you can't crank up the pain if you want.

I have a question.
Is it possible to condition oneself to sub level 4 strikes and is is sensible to do so?

Well no, because SubLevel Four Kenpo strikes go far beyond what you've been shown. There is a tendancy to think of it as all "nerves" or "manipulations," or perhaps a combination of the two. All three assumptions are wrong, and it does so much more to "dominate" the interaction from destroying your opponets structural integrity to draining his energy and opening nerve cavities etc. You have varying levels of manipulations and all of it is integrated, while you maximize your own capabilities. It is so sophisticated you can't "add" it to motion based Kenpo. It is a methodology unto itself that is frighteningly effective, and explains why Parker could do things others could not and still can't duplicate.

As far as the nerves, you can become "less sensitive" to demos over time, and some people are like that naturally. But the amount of energy you use in a demo of a nerve and an actual confrontation of course are worlds apart. When certain nerves are repeatedly activated, the body forms a callous or thickening over time to protect the nerve. The nerve retains its sensitivity it simply takes more energy and a more efficient execution to activate it. Mr. Parker "wore out" nerves on my arms teaching me. Now it's difficult to get a reaction from me without a really precise execution in conjuction with more power than you would normally use in a demonstration. Even my own student develop similarly to often tapped nerves, but have significant reactions on those nerves that are not utilized as often.

Thanks again for everyone that has helped put together one of the most informative kenpo posts on the web!

Respectfully,
Dan
:asian:

More to come.:asian:

 

[Dan]

Thanks for the reply.:asian:

There is a lot in there to ponder, and a lot to look forward to learning.

Originally posted by Doc:
You have varying levels of manipulations and all of it is integrated, while you maximize your own capabilities. It is so sophisticated you can't "add" it to motion based Kenpo. It is a methodology unto itself that is frighteningly effective, and explains why Parker could do things others could not and still can't duplicate.

Certainty and familiarity are attractive I guess, but as somone fairly new to kenpo I like the idea that the kenpo system has room for different methodologies within it; reaching a point sometime in the future where there are a range of options open as to how to analyse, interpret and execute the system is definitely something I want to aim for.

It is different than blunt force striking, and in demos it doesn't really hurt but can be extremely disorienting, but that doesn't mean you can't crank up the pain if you want.

Acquiring a good range of intensity of response also seems a pretty handy addition to the tool kit.
I guess like most of us I get a huge buzz out of really letting rip with a technique in class, but I am fairly conscious that, at this stage anyway, the results are likely to be pretty binary if I used it for real; either I get pasted, or I make a real mess of another human being. Neither are exactly great results.
I reckon a choice between devastating techniques and highly effective but controlled responses can only be a good thing. It definitely isn't something I feel I have yet, but as some of the power in the techniques is starting to come together I increasingly perceive the value of it.

...SubLevel Four Kenpo strikes go far beyond what you've been shown. There is a tendancy to think of it as all "nerves" or "manipulations," or perhaps a combination of the two. All three assumptions are wrong, and it does so much more to "dominate" the interaction from destroying your opponets structural integrity to draining his energy and opening nerve cavities etc.

It is pretty motivating at this stage of my training to get a glimpse of where it can all lead.
Looks like a whole load of fun, definitely lots to play with later on.


Many Thanks,

Dan

I really wish I had more time with him. He's a bright and talented man.

I'll pass it on to Mr. Mills.

 

[Doc]

It is pretty motivating at this stage of my training to get a glimpse of where it can all lead.
Looks like a whole load of fun, definitely lots to play with later on.

As long as you understand when you begin SubLevel Four Kenpo study, you will begin at the first square, relearning everything you thought you knew, and you will be glad you did.