SubLevel Four Article # 4

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
Thank you I appreciate it. No the articles are completely different. The current one partly explains some of the many levels of SubLevel Four Kenpo, and doesn't really touch on nerves trikes. the next article will be on how to counter a street grappler. I think it's going in BB.

Thank you for the info. I'll go out and purchase it then.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Thank you for the info. I'll go out and purchase it then.

Please let me know what you think and bring the questions. I can take it. They limit the size of the articles so you never can say all you would like to. Plus they edit like crazy which drives you up a wall when you aren't when someone chops what they think isn't needed.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
Please let me know what you think and bring the questions. I can take it.

Sure, I would be happy to. I have all kinds of questions some off the wall and some not but many questions nonetheless.

They limit the size of the articles so you never can say all you would like to.

Well judging by your posts here on MT as well as the kenponet you would have probably taken their entire magazine. Just think how you wouldn't leave them any advertising pages.

Plus they edit like crazy which drives you up a wall when you aren't when someone chops what they think isn't needed.

Now that would irritate me.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Just came to my mind, are many p. points also vital points? I'm thinking about some of the targets on finger set

No, not really.
Vital points are really about damaging your opponent. Pressure point attacks are more about doing enough to stop the attack.

You know, like VP for example, Punch to the throat. Cause the larynx to bruise the windpipe. Assailant chokes to death.

PP sword hand strike slightly off centre of the neck, striking the St9 area, and Vagus nerve, as well as carotid sinuses, plus a few other juicy points and voila, we have a knock out.

Of course some might argue that the KO is not guaranteed, (what is?), but even if he is not KO'd you can still take the time to use the very best self defense technique known to man, you know, the 100 yard dash.

Either way the main objective has been achieved.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

I was just wondering, do you use pressure point strikes as an integral part of SL-4, or do you concentrate mainly on Nerve disruptions and the like?

--Dave

:asian:

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

PP sword hand strike slightly off centre of the neck, striking the St9 area, and Vagus nerve, as well as carotid sinuses, plus a few other juicy points and voila, we have a knock out.

:asian:

you have to take into account the health/age of the person you're striking- vulnerable sections of the carotid sinus/artery, the vagus nerve, the trigeminal nerve, the facial nerve, the liver, and the chest wall directly over the heart. Blunt trauma to these areas can cause nausea, neurological deficits, syncope, hemorrhaging, arrhythmias, and death.

 

[lonekimono]

Hey Jason whats going on here do you and Mr Ron have something going on?
i mean if you got an inside to get the mag that he did get me one lol living in south Jersey ,,well what can i say

yours in kenpo

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I was just wondering, do you use pressure point strikes as an integral part of SL-4, or do you concentrate mainly on Nerve disruptions and the like?

--Dave

:asian:

In SL4 it's all one and the same. You can't separate one from the other.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by jazkiljok
you have to take into account the health/age of the person you're striking- vulnerable sections of the carotid sinus/artery, the vagus nerve, the trigeminal nerve, the facial nerve, the liver, and the chest wall directly over the heart. Blunt trauma to these areas can cause nausea, neurological deficits, syncope, hemorrhaging, arrhythmias, and death.

If you are doing some kind of manipulative medical work on these people, you would take these factors into account, but in a self defense situation, where all you want to do is end the situation, none of these factors are truely a consideration.

My goal in any self defense situation, is to end it as quickly as possible with minimal damage to myself AND my opponent. However, if their health should be so lacking that one of my strikes to their pressure point areas would kill them, then they really shouldn't have attacked me. I am not a violent person, but I believe that I have a right to respond, to an attack, the best way I know how. If someone dies from that, I will have trouble dealing with that, but I won't blame myself for their death.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
In SL4 it's all one and the same. You can't separate one from the other.

So do you use the 5 elements as taught in Dim Mak?

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
So do you use the 5 elements as taught in Dim Mak?

--Dave

:asian:

Essentially yes, but there are some modern applications from the Chinese that go beyond. In the old Chinese Arts it's not a component but just how it's executed. Like some arts have breathing, but the Chinese just breathe correctly. It only became the component Dim Mak to "outsiders." It allowed the Chinese to teach the arts to outsiders and remove information. I began my studies with a Chinese Grandmaster (Ark Wong) and Ed Parker did as well once he set up shop on the mainland.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by lonekimono
Hey Jason whats going on here do you and Mr Ron have something going on?

Not that I'm aware of. However I'm just a little 'ole 2nd degree looking for more kenpo knowledge.

i mean if you got an inside to get the mag that he did get me one lol living in south Jersey ,,well what can i say

Tell me where you want one sent to and I'll put it in the u.s.p.s.. I found the magazine at Barnes & Noble.

 

[lonekimono]

Jason i'm just trying to be funny, i get like that somethimes
it's just i've been trying to say HELLO to MR RON, maybe i should mail myself in a box to him lo,

yours in kenpo

how long has this been going on? ace

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Doc
Essentially yes, but there are some modern applications from the Chinese that go beyond. In the old Chinese Arts it's not a component but just how it's executed. Like some arts have breathing, but the Chinese just breathe correctly. It only became the component Dim Mak to "outsiders." It allowed the Chinese to teach the arts to outsiders and remove information. I began my studies with a Chinese Grandmaster (Ark Wong) and Ed Parker did as well once he set up shop on the mainland.

I had to go look this up and I found this information

http://members.tripod.com/ju_jutsu_master/id55.htm

which also looks similar to stuff in one of Dillman's books that I've seen.

So does this stuff all "come from" Dim Mak? Or is it just an "Ancient Chinese Secret" that really is not tied to a particular art.

No, not an Ancient Chinese LAUNDRY secret either! But I was not sure how else to put it. Chinese Common Knowledge? Kung Fu stuff? I'm curious. Did Ark Wong teach a particular system to you Doc?
:asian:

 

[lonekimono]

it was an old chinese man i think his name was wally wang
or som young chik,, now don't get upset just having fun

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
If you are doing some kind of manipulative medical work on these people, you would take these factors into account, but in a self defense situation, where all you want to do is end the situation, none of these factors are truely a consideration.

My goal in any self defense situation, is to end it as quickly as possible with minimal damage to myself AND my opponent. However, if their health should be so lacking that one of my strikes to their pressure point areas would kill them, then they really shouldn't have attacked me. I am not a violent person, but I believe that I have a right to respond, to an attack, the best way I know how. If someone dies from that, I will have trouble dealing with that, but I won't blame myself for their death.

--Dave

:asian:

not my point. point is striking some one on the carotid sinuses for example can cause neurological damage and is potentially life threatening -- their age, their health (drugged/drunk, bad, genetic) will increase the probablity of greater damage caused by trauma to this area--but you can be in pitch perfect health and wind up dead.

blunt carotid artery trauma can, and has, cause carotid artery dissections or thrombus formation leading to a stroke or death.

just stating that it's no more or less potentially lethal than say-- shoving your fist into an attacker's throat.

you do what you got to do to protect yourself by all means.
:2pistols:

i do believe that the ability to control and restrain your attacker with minimum risk to yourself and minimal harm to your opponent is probably the highest physical/mental acheivement to be obtain in the study of the arts.

I don't believe your "basic" or even what some call advanced amerian kenpo (as in more complex extensions, or gaseous expansion, equation formulating, or maximizing the number of strikes in the shortest duration etc.) is design to reach this state.

there are some exceptions (Doc's Sub4, Ed Parker Jr.'s advocatation for "uncle bob" training,etc) but by large AK is an art based on brutal and relentless blunt force trauma to end a confrontation. getting more specific just makes you more efficient but no less brutal and damaging.

peace




:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by lonekimono
Jason i'm just trying to be funny, i get like that somethimes

I know, We all do from time to time.

it's just i've been trying to say HELLO to MR RON, maybe i should mail myself in a box to him

Well from NJ to CA that might be a little uncomfortable. But maybe start a thread with his name on it and say hi then maybe he will respond.

 

[lonekimono]

thats ok i'll call him

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jazkiljok
not my point. point is striking some one on the carotid sinuses for example can cause neurological damage and is potentially life threatening -- their age, their health (drugged/drunk, bad, genetic) will increase the probablity of greater damage caused by trauma to this area--but you can be in pitch perfect health and wind up dead.

blunt carotid artery trauma can, and has, cause carotid artery dissections or thrombus formation leading to a stroke or death.

just stating that it's no more or less potentially lethal than say-- shoving your fist into an attacker's throat.

you do what you got to do to protect yourself by all means.
:2pistols:

i do believe that the ability to control and restrain your attacker with minimum risk to yourself and minimal harm to your opponent is probably the highest physical/mental acheivement to be obtain in the study of the arts.

I don't believe your "basic" or even what some call advanced amerian kenpo (as in more complex extensions, or gaseous expansion, equation formulating, or maximizing the number of strikes in the shortest duration etc.) is design to reach this state.

there are some exceptions (Doc's Sub4, Ed Parker Jr.'s advocatation for "uncle bob" training,etc) but by large AK is an art based on brutal and relentless blunt force trauma to end a confrontation. getting more specific just makes you more efficient but no less brutal and damaging.

peace




:asian:

Dam that was good.

Seriously, that was one of the reasons Mr. Parker took me in that direction. I am in law enforcement and Mr. Parker loved teaching cops and was always fascinated by the business. Some of his first students when he began teaching as a brown belt were Utah Highway Patrol. We had planned a series of books and videos specifically for professional security and police. Of course he passed before we could finish them, but I was left with a tremendous amount of information. Ed Parker's study with some of the great Chinese Masters is documented and they treated him like one of their own. Something they almost never did for "outsiders."

I have often said the same thing about Ed Parker's commercial version of his art(s) and been ridiculed by some for suggesting that it was "incomplete." If you remove the blunt force trauma and assaults on soft body tissue you have nothing left. Of course these are things anyone without any real training could do, and is taught in "self defense courses" for women all the time. Parker systemized these self defense course ideas, based it on motion so anyone could learn it, created a rank structure, and came up with a reasonable art that could be commercially sold and generate self defense skills rather quickly through it's conceptual teaching without his constant prescense. The level of destruction is the responsibility of the student, and while students were into "eye hooks" and elongated fighting sequences called "extensions" Ed Parker himself did other things. The highest level of proficiency has always been the ability to "win" the fight and NOT injure an attacker unless it was absolutely necessary. Parker knew that, but also knew he could never proliferate that in his lifetime. It requires much more knowledgeable instructors and constant hands on training that does not lend itself well to commercial teachings. He was the only expert and knew that he couldn't have it both ways in his lifetime. Proliferate and spread his art worldwide became the primary goal for reasons of his own, and that version of his arts dominated by sheer noteriety and numbers, but that doesn't mean others don't still exist.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Essentially yes, but there are some modern applications from the Chinese that go beyond. In the old Chinese Arts it's not a component but just how it's executed. Like some arts have breathing, but the Chinese just breathe correctly. It only became the component Dim Mak to "outsiders." It allowed the Chinese to teach the arts to outsiders and remove information. I began my studies with a Chinese Grandmaster (Ark Wong) and Ed Parker did as well once he set up shop on the mainland.

Ok, yeah that's the way our style uses it too. So my next question would have to be....
Is SL-4 Chinese Dim Mak? Is it a variation of DM or just loosely based on it? The more I learn about this fascinating side to Kenpo, the more intrigued I get.

--Dave

:asian: