Styles that created there own kata

[HighKick]

Conversely, there are styles/systems that do use forms (and/or drills) to teach techniques.
With the exception of the more modern styles I would say the majority do.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Itosu, Miyagi, Nagamine and the Uechi seniors to name a few, all created kata for thier styles. That wasn't that long ago.

Yes, they did. In old karate, there were no "beginner" kata, as the art was aimed towards mostly those training to be professionals. When it was introduced to the public easy kata were needed to get them off to a quick start, so some masters created them.

The question should really be, does a particular newly created kata have a purpose and have merit on its own accord.

This is a good question. I see no value in a new kata that is simply a rearrangement/combination of existing ones. I doubt that there is much one could add that can't be found in the many kata commonly practiced today. One may design one incorporating other martial systems to make it into MMA, but then the essence of karate is lost.

 

[Badhabits]

Yes, they did. In old karate, there were no "beginner" kata, as the art was aimed towards mostly those training to be professionals. When it was introduced to the public easy kata were needed to get them off to a quick start, so some masters created them.

This is a good question. I see no value in a new kata that is simply a rearrangement/combination of existing ones. I doubt that there is much one could add that can't be found in the many kata commonly practiced today. One may design one incorporating other martial systems to make it into MMA, but then the essence of karate is lost.

Amen to this. I've tried creating a kata just as a learning exercise. Always end up feeling like I'm just plagiarizing other kata.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Amen to this. I've tried creating a kata just as a learning exercise. Always end up feeling like I'm just plagiarizing other kata.

This is OK for personal use, especially for practice in putting together combos and applications differently than found in existing kata to build flexibility. But I would not teach it as a representation of my system, at least until I get to 10th degree.

 

[E0richt]

Sure, but I guarantee they are practicing drills and chained movements the some may call forms. That is why is said 'potato/potatoe'. Why does it matter what format movements are practiced as long as it works?
Your OP was already unclear so, what is the point of your post? To bash forms is becoming clear.

Bash is a strong word. But I was curious on opinions... I just have had form training where the application was not provided but something like ashihara kata is interesting... I could see the application immediately which drives interest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One may design one incorporating other martial systems to make it into MMA, but then the essence of karate is lost.

If I add

- throwing skill,
- jab, cross, hook, uppercut combo,
- hook kick, inside crescent kick, spin hook kick combo,
- ...

into my long fist form, why the essence of long fist is lost?

A + B > A where A still exist and not lost.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One may design one incorporating other martial systems to make it into MMA, but then the essence of karate is lost.

Are you saying that if you add something extra into Karate, the Karate is no longer pure. Is the term "pure" that important?

Master Wang Ziping combine Chinese wrestling and long fist into a form. It's called "24 methods of MA". Nobody dared to question the purity of his long fist system.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

This is a good question. I see no value in a new kata that is simply a rearrangement/combination of existing ones. I doubt that there is much one could add that can't be found in the many kata commonly practiced today. One may design one incorporating other martial systems to make it into MMA, but then the essence of karate is lost.

It is not clear how the essence of karate is lost, could you elaborate on this point? All kata were originally designed by somebody. They did not arrive fully formed in a puff of smoke. What essence are we losing when combining the old with the new?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Are you saying that if you add something extra into Karate, the Karate is no longer pure. Is the term "pure" that important?

IMO it's a slippery slope. Karate developed as a synthesis of various Chinese styles and native Okinawan methods that intertwined grappling techniques. This is different than adding a new art/system (or even another karate style) as it likely will not be a seamless addition.

To illustrate: When baking a cake an egg is added and then mixed/incorporated within the batter. This is much different than baking the cake and afterwards putting a fried egg on top.

Another consideration is who is doing the adding; a master expertly versed in all the elements, or someone just adding stuff to be different. Sometimes when you add a new ingredient, the existing ingredients must be modified to accommodate the new thing. This can negatively affect their effectiveness.

I remember when the sport of kick boxing began, mostly a mix of karate kicks and boxing. The result for that first decade was 90% sloppy boxing and 10% mostly ineffective kicks. Eventually it was refined by highly skilled individuals, but IMO is not as good as muy thai, pure boxing or pure karate to watch.

There are plenty of existing styles/systems out there already to meet most needs: Shotokan, wado-ryu, wrestling, MMA, CMA, muy thai, etc., each with their own unique blend of technique and doctrine. If you are learning Shotokan but want wrestling, study wrestling - don't change Shotokan.

One is always free to add or change things to their heart's desire for their own use (and it may be effective and not negatively impact the art), but there is seldom a need to reinvent the wheel.

These are just some considerations to Wang's question. Perhaps there is no single correct answer to this bigger question. Can something be changed and still be "traditional?" What if Shotokan or long fist styles change so much they lose their unique/pure identity or disappear completely? Is it a loss for TMA? It's a slippery slope.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sometimes when you add a new ingredient, the existing ingredients must be modified to accommodate the new thing. This can negatively affect their effectiveness.

... If you are learning Shotokan but want wrestling, study wrestling - don't change Shotokan.

When I throw a punch toward my opponent's face and my opponent blocks it, I will have 2 options.

1. Use my non-punching arm to take over his blocking. I then use the same arm to punch again (long fist approach). I can use my punching arm to pull my opponent's blocking arm. But this can be force against force.
2. Use my other hand to punch his face when his blocking arm moves pass the center (boxing approach). All I need is to find the gape.

Which method is better?

By using

- method 1, I can establish a clinch, and change a striking game into a wrestling game.
- method 2, I can have fast 1, 2 punches and continue my striking game.

By doing both, I'll have 2 options which is always good.