Styles that created there own kata

[E0richt]

There are styles that have created there own katas. Gosoku ryu has some beginner maths that are basically a set where all of the basic strikes are strung together, with similar ones for blocks, and kicks. Then there is ashihara karate that has forms based on their approach to kumite... What are your thoughts?

 

[skribs]

There are styles that have created there own katas. Gosoku ryu has some beginner maths that are basically a set where all of the basic strikes are strung together, with similar ones for blocks, and kicks. Then there is ashihara karate that has forms based on their approach to kumite... What are your thoughts?

I don't buy the implied premise of this post. By saying "styles that created their own kata", you're implying it's much more common for styles not to create their own kata. I believe most styles have created their own, and that's why they're a new style.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There are styles that have created there own katas.

First of all, let's be clear on "styles" and discount the low-mid grade black belt who decides to become the master of his own "style." He may invent his own kata to give credence his uniquely created style, and/or because he doesn't understand or like the ones he was taught. This is often a mishmash of whatever they guy thinks looks good or reflects his genius in reinventing the wheel.

If we're talking about traditional styles that have remained true to their roots, there are kata that are 100-250 years old, and yes, they've been modified over the generations but usually still recognizable. These forms reflect the real combat methods fighting professionals used including vital point strikes, limb grabs, twists and breaks, takedowns, etc. (Isshinryu founder Shimabuku did create a "new" kata, sunsu, but this is just a combination of techniques from several other kata, making it the style's advanced "master form," reflecting the style's total identity, technique wise).

As karate spread to the Japanese public schools, most of these more lethal techniques were "removed" from these traditional forms (I put "removed" in quotes as they could be said to still exist, but not overtly taught or shown, sometimes to the extent they were forgotten.)

Some traditional styles did create their own new kata for beginners not wanting to take a year to learn and understand the old more complex ones, and for those that didn't, individual teachers would create their own beginning "dojo kata."

Lastly, there are newer modern styles that have evolved with their own kata. These usually stress competitive techniques or are a collection of selected techniques taken from other systems to give an MMA flavor to it.

 

[E0richt]

I don't buy the implied premise of this post. By saying "styles that created their own kata", you're implying it's much more common for styles not to create their own kata. I believe most styles have created their own, and that's why they're a new style.

So in the traditional Okinawa , Japanese and even taekwondo...you are saying that they generally make their own kata?...

 

[E0richt]

First of all, let's be clear on "styles" and discount the low-mid grade black belt who decides to become the master of his own "style." He may invent his own kata to give credence his uniquely created style, and/or because he doesn't understand or like the ones he was taught. This is often a mishmash of whatever they guy thinks looks good or reflects his genius in reinventing the wheel.

If we're talking about traditional styles that have remained true to their roots, there are kata that are 100-250 years old, and yes, they've been modified over the generations but usually still recognizable. These forms reflect the real combat methods fighting professionals used including vital point strikes, limb grabs, twists and breaks, takedowns, etc. (Isshinryu founder Shimabuku did create a "new" kata, sunsu, but this is just a combination of techniques from several other kata, making it the style's advanced "master form," reflecting the style's total identity, technique wise).

As karate spread to the Japanese public schools, most of these more lethal techniques were "removed" from these traditional forms (I put "removed" in quotes as they could be said to still exist, but not overtly taught or shown, sometimes to the extent they were forgotten.)

Some traditional styles did create their own new kata for beginners not wanting to take a year to learn and understand the old more complex ones, and for those that didn't, individual teachers would create their own beginning "dojo kata."

Lastly, there are newer modern styles that have evolved with their own kata. These usually stress competitive techniques or are a collection of selected techniques taken from other systems to give an MMA flavor to it.

Ok that is my understanding as well...you gave a great history... No opinion on it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a collection of selected techniques taken from other systems to give an MMA flavor to it.

Most of the TMA form has 1 step 1 punch. It makes sense to create new form that have

1. 1 step 2 punches - such as jab, cross, ...
2. 1 step 3 punches - such as jab, cross, hook, ...
3. 1 step 4 punches - such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut.

The new form will require more speed. If 1 step takes you 1 second, punches in

1. will require to be 1/2 second.
2. will require to be 1/3 second.
3. will require to be 1/4 second.

 

[skribs]

So in the traditional Okinawa , Japanese and even taekwondo...you are saying that they generally make their own kata?...

Every style of TKD that I'm aware of (such as ITF, KKW, ATA) has their own forms.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Kata don't just spontaneously create themselves, so as far as I can see there are only 3 possibilities:

1. The kata are created by representatives of the style. Typically this will be someone in a position of authority, such as a founder or a governing body.
2. The kata are inherited from some parent art. (Practitioner of style A splits off and forms their own style B, but keeps some or all of the kata from style A.)
3. The kata are for some reason swiped from an unrelated art. I've seen this done occasionally, and it makes very little sense to me. A kata taken from an unrelated art is unlikely to contain the lessons and principles which are relevant to the new art.

So, what was the question again?

 

[E0richt]

Kata don't just spontaneously create themselves, so as far as I can see there are only 3 possibilities:

1. The kata are created by representatives of the style. Typically this will be someone in a position of authority, such as a founder or a governing body.
2. The kata are inherited from some parent art. (Practitioner of style A splits off and forms their own style B, but keeps some or all of the kata from style A.)
3. The kata are for some reason swiped from an unrelated art. I've seen this done occasionally, and it makes very little sense to me. A kata taken from an unrelated art is unlikely to contain the lessons and principles which are relevant to the new art.

So, what was the question again?

just wanted opinions / discussion on the phenomenon. Especially since some practitioners are very invested with their kata. Hope I have not crossed a line by doing this...

 

[E0richt]

Every style of TKD that I'm aware of (such as ITF, KKW, ATA) has their own forms.

I know there are some katas from japanese that have been incorporated in the korean styles... unfortunately, I will have to admit that the history of taekwondo and some other korean styles are a bit opaque to me... like "how is tang soo do related to tae kwon do?" "is Moo Duk Kwon another style of korean karate?". I do know that chuck norris's style was based on tang soo do... I will have to look into his style and see what kind of kata he uses (based on tang soo do or did he "rewrite" them for his style. I guess I am wondering what the members think about a complete new set of kata compared to adding or minor modification thereof.

 

[E0richt]

Every style of TKD that I'm aware of (such as ITF, KKW, ATA) has their own forms.

and they have no common root? they are completely new kata?

 

[E0richt]

Most of the TMA form has 1 step 1 punch. It makes sense to create new form that have

1. 1 step 2 punches - such as jab, cross, ...
2. 1 step 3 punches - such as jab, cross, hook, ...
3. 1 step 4 punches - such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut.

The new form will require more speed. If 1 step takes you 1 second, punches in

1. will require to be 1/2 second.
2. will require to be 1/3 second.
3. will require to be 1/4 second.

totally agree... now you are moving toward something that would be referred to as "shadow boxing" in boxing and muay thai systems...

 

[E0richt]

I don't buy the implied premise of this post. By saying "styles that created their own kata", you're implying it's much more common for styles not to create their own kata. I believe most styles have created their own, and that's why they're a new style.

I don't buy that.... even kyokushin uses traditional kata... they may have added to that list of them but doesn't change using taikyoku in their system... I am talking about creating a "new" kata not just choosing a different one from a "pool"...

 

[Buka]

As I see it, there are three possibilities.

Either someone constructed a pattern of movements, including the internal and mental nuances that wouldn’t be easily identified by anyone not privy to the knowledge and proper instruction of the Kata.

Or more than one “someone”
did the same.

Or someone found the knowledge written on animal hide hidden under a rock. Which is highly unlikely, leaving us only the first two possibilities.

 

[HighKick]

There are styles that have created there own katas. Gosoku ryu has some beginner maths that are basically a set where all of the basic strikes are strung together, with similar ones for blocks, and kicks. Then there is ashihara karate that has forms based on their approach to kumite... What are your thoughts?

What you describe sounds more like drills to me but potato/potatoe. Any organized pattern of movements to make practice more efficient can be called a 'form'.
All too often nowadays people do not connect practicing forms with learning technique. I never understood that.

 

[E0richt]

What you describe sounds more like drills to me but potato/potatoe. Any organized pattern of movements to make practice more efficient can be called a 'form'.
All too often nowadays people do not connect practicing forms with learning technique. I never understood that.

Maybe because there are systems that don't use kata and still learn technique.