Style Bashing

[Anarax]

However, I watched UFC fighters doing leg kicks, and my thought process as an orange belt in Taekwondo is, "Those kicks are horrible. There's no chamber, they can't even kick above the waist. The beginners in my TKD school are better than these pro fighters."

Yes, going off of superficial observations led to an inaccurate conclusion of a different style of kicking at the time you knew little about.

It's not that I had an emotional response when watching the UFC match. It's that I had been told for the last several months to chamber my kick and kick above the waist. To me, that was the correct way of doing things.

The emotional side can come out both defensively and offensively. Including martial arts and other topics, emotions usually enter into a discussion when there's a lack of knowledge about styles and body mechanics, even of the style your practice. People taking things too personally if their style is criticized is also a pitfall many fall into.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Okay, but when you train in multiple styles, are they still separate styles or have you integrated them and normalized that unique recipe?

It's very difficult to train style A on Monday and style B on Tuesday. Your style A will have style B shadow. Your style B will also have style A shadow. To find the similarity and difference between style A and style B become important. IMO, 100% integration may be impossible. But 60% integration should be possible.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think style bashing is just a term people use to belittle and present an opportunity to present another martial arts as being inferior to other systems or to just take the long route to say "your system sucks"

I prefer to call it incomplete instead of inferior. It's not a MA system that's incomplete. It's a certain principle/strategy that's incomplete.

When I see someone pushes his opponent away, I always wonder if he just adds his leg skill into his pushing, he will have a perfect throw. If someone already trained his upper body, why doesn't he also train his lower body?

Also when I see someone blocks a punch, I will also ask, "Why doesn't he blocks and then grabs his opponent's punching arm?"

 

[Flying Crane]

I prefer to call it incomplete instead of inferior. It's not a MA system that's incomplete. It's a certain principle/strategy that's incomplete.

When I see someone pushes his opponent away, I always wonder if he just adds his leg skill into his pushing, he will have a perfect throw. If someone already trained his upper body, why doesn't he also train his lower body?

Also when I see someone blocks a punch, I will also ask, "Why doesn't he blocks and then grabs his opponent's punching arm?"

Who gets to define what it means to be complete or incomplete?

The system is what it is. Either you decide you like it or you want something else. That is your choice. It isn’t the system at fault.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's very difficult to train style A on Monday and style B on Tuesday. Your style A will have style B shadow. Your style B will also have style A shadow. To find the similarity and difference between style A and style B become important. IMO, 100% integration may be impossible. But 60% integration should be possible.

. When I began training with my last teacher our schedule was Tai chi for 1hour, then gung fu basics practice for 1 hour, then advanced gung fu practice 1 hour for a total of 3 hours on Monday/Wednesday/Friday. Tai chi 1 hour, gung fu 1 hour, Tai chi again for 1 hour for a total of 3 hours on Tuesday-Thursday. Gung fu 1 hour, Tai chi 1 hour on Saturday morning. I also incorporated weight training on tuesdays and thursdays before martial arts training. When we visited Sifu Woo we trained 5 hours 7 days a week. If you train like this for 10 years you can integrate the concepts in a useful way. Maybe nothing is 100%.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Who gets to define what it means to be complete or incomplete?

The system is what it is. Either you decide you like it or you want something else. That is your choice. It isn’t the system at fault.

That's why it's better to talk about principle/strategy than to talk about system.

For example,

1. Talk about principle/strategy:

One should never come back with empty hand.

2. Talk about style:

Your MA style doesn't train grab and pull.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I prefer to call it incomplete instead of inferior.

The problem with that is that the system may have been developed for a specific situation. Example. Sword fighting systems lack a good set of punching and kicking techniques. Is it incomplete?

Is a car incomplete because it cannot drive on water? Is boxing incomplete because it has no kicking? There won't be a one size fits all for martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One should never come back with empty hand.

Even with this, there are exceptions. Push someone off the curb, over a rock that's behind them, push them into water, or into mud or push to escape are all cases where you want to push and come back with empty hand. A person may want to push to create kicking distance. Or push so that they can have time to draw their weapon.

In my case if I were fighting someone I may push to deny my opponent grappling range. I've done that many times with the MMA guy that I spar with. His advantage is grappling. So me pushing him out of grappling range takes away his advantage. Pushing him away and me following up with a strike is to my advantage

 

[Steve]

The problem with that is that the system may have been developed for a specific situation. Example. Sword fighting systems lack a good set of punching and kicking techniques. Is it incomplete?

Is a car incomplete because it cannot drive on water? Is boxing incomplete because it has no kicking? There won't be a one size fits all for martial arts.

A car that doesn’t float is one thing. We can discuss that around here.

A boat that doesn’t float is a bad boat. We might be able to discuss that, but you have to be careful.

A company that produces mostly boats that don’t float is a bad system. Something is up there. But singling out that company for consistently producing bad boats is bashing.

It’s a funky dynamic.

 

[Anarax]

The problem with that is that the system may have been developed for a specific situation. Example. Sword fighting systems lack a good set of punching and kicking techniques. Is it incomplete?

Is a car incomplete because it cannot drive on water? Is boxing incomplete because it has no kicking? There won't be a one size fits all for martial arts.

I mostly agree with you that no martial art is truly "complete". However, having trained sport fencing for over a decade and teaching it for a few years, I see the huge flaws and holes it has in it's training, methods and techniques. Sport fencing was originally intended to simulate real sword duels in a controlled rule set and environment. Many of the original applicable techniques have been "modified" to win a game of electrified tag. That's not to say sport fencing is 100% useless, I can incorporate some of the skills I've learned from fencing to other styles, but I most likely would've learned those skills anyways if I chose them first over fencing. I would suggest FMA or HEMA over sport fencing if someone want(s) to learn how to fight with blades oppose to winning a game with many restrictive rules.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A company that produces mostly boats that don’t float is a bad system. Something is up there. But singling out that company for consistently producing bad boats is bashing.

I wouldn't call that bashing. If you were looking to buy hosting for a website there would be hosting services that I will recommend and websites that I would warn my client to stay away from.

Doctors often do this with things that aren't healthy for us. I you are looking for a boat that floats, then I will warn you about a company that sells boats that don't float. In the same light, If you were looking to buy a boat that doesn't float, then I would single out that company again because it fits your needs.

I single things all the time for either good or bad services. There's a Taco Bell that has an 82 rating. So I tell people not to go the taco bell at that location. This is a much easier way to provide valuable information than to try to figure out which Taco Bell locations have good ratings. I don't know where my friend may be when they want to buy a taco, but if they are in the area of that one store with that low rating, then I tell them not to go to that one.

The one thing I rarely do is say that just because service is bad at one location that it's bad at all locations. I only do this with Walmart. If you want good technical customer service on computers then don't go to Walmart regardless of the location.

Walmart is good for other things, just not for good technical service on things like computers and tablets. They do some things good and that isn't one of them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I mostly agree with you that no martial art is truly "complete".

Walmart is good for other things, just not for good technical service on things like computers and tablets. They do some things good and that isn't one of them.

This is why besides shopping at Walmart, you may also want to shop at Best Buy.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Walmart is good for other things, just not for good technical service on things like computers and tablets. They do some things good and that isn't one of them.

This is why besides shopping at Walmart, you may also want to shop at Best Buy.

Piffle... Amazon for the win.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many of the original applicable techniques have been "modified" to win a game of electrified tag.

But this goes back to what I was speaking of. The same thing can be said about Martial Arts Point sparring where some of it has just turned into a game of tag. For sport purposes are you going to get better training methods? I'm willing to bet that HEMA would lose in the sport.

Similar to how I would lose in Martial Arts point sparring competition. My entire concept of me willing to be hit if I can land something harder. is a no win strategy for point sparring. But then again my training and how Jow Ga is taught is not the right system for point sparring. Do Jow Ga students point spar? Of course. Do they use Jow Ga long fist techniques when they spar? nope.

 

[Steve]

I wouldn't call that bashing. If you were looking to buy hosting for a website there would be hosting services that I will recommend and websites that I would warn my client to stay away from.

Doctors often do this with things that aren't healthy for us. I you are looking for a boat that floats, then I will warn you about a company that sells boats that don't float. In the same light, If you were looking to buy a boat that doesn't float, then I would single out that company again because it fits your needs.

I single things all the time for either good or bad services. There's a Taco Bell that has an 82 rating. So I tell people not to go the taco bell at that location. This is a much easier way to provide valuable information than to try to figure out which Taco Bell locations have good ratings. I don't know where my friend may be when they want to buy a taco, but if they are in the area of that one store with that low rating, then I tell them not to go to that one.

The one thing I rarely do is say that just because service is bad at one location that it's bad at all locations. I only do this with Walmart. If you want good technical customer service on computers then don't go to Walmart regardless of the location.

Walmart is good for other things, just not for good technical service on things like computers and tablets. They do some things good and that isn't one of them.

I wouldn’t call it bashing either, but owners of those boats would and so would the moderators on MaritimeTalk, the friendly boat discussion board.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

having trained sport fencing for over a decade and teaching it for a few years, I see the huge flaws and holes it has in it's training, methods and techniques.

Having trained Chinese wrestling for sport, I also find out some flaws and holes in training.

In sport, after you have hip thrown your opponent, you want to hold on his waist, so his fall won't be too hard. Your waist holding arm will have a upward lift.



But in combat, you want to throw your opponent as hard as you can. The waist lifting motion at the end of the hip throw is then removed from the training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wouldn’t call it bashing either, but owners of those boats would and so would the moderators on MaritimeTalk, the friendly boat discussion board.

ha ha ha.. MaritimeTalk. Totally didn't see that one coming.

 

[O'Malley]

ha ha ha.. MaritimeTalk. Totally didn't sea that one coming.

Fixed it.

A car that doesn’t float is one thing. We can discuss that around here.

A boat that doesn’t float is a bad boat. We might be able to discuss that, but you have to be careful.

A company that produces mostly boats that don’t float is a bad system. Something is up there. But singling out that company for consistently producing bad boats is bashing.

It’s a funky dynamic.

I guess it depends on the system's main sailing point.

Ahoy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is no right or wrong but trade off. The following is the general "style bashing" between northern CMA and southern CMA.

Northern CMA: When I punch, my back shoulder, chest, front shoulder, punching arm make a perfect straight line. This way, I can have the maximum reach - 1 long arm, 1 short arm with more powerful compress-release punch.

Southern CMA: When I punch, my chest and my punching arm make a 90-degree angle. This way, my other punch can hit my opponent much faster - both arms have the same reach with faster double punches.

 

[Anarax]

But this goes back to what I was speaking of. The same thing can be said about Martial Arts Point sparring where some of it has just turned into a game of tag. For sport purposes are you going to get better training methods? I'm willing to bet that HEMA would lose in the sport.

That's why I want to make clear that's why I'm separating the differences between winning a highly restrictive game like sport fencing, and learning to fight with weaponry. Kali has more combat viability than sport fencing, so neither of them are on an equal playing field as it pertains to combat. Sport fencing has fewer dimensions than Kali or HEMA given its' restrictive rules. Will a sport fencer be better at sport fencing than a Kali practitioner? Absolutely. However, bladed combat conditions/dynamics are much closer to that of Kali or HEMA than it is for sport fencing.

Similar to how I would lose in Martial Arts point sparring competition. My entire concept of me willing to be hit if I can land something harder. is a no win strategy for point sparring.

I understand where you're coming from. However, if I had to bet on who would have a better chance of defending themselves against an average Joe, the average point fighter or the average kickboxer both of which have the same amount of training, I'd bet on the kickboxer. The kickboxers inability to not win a point competition has no bearing on his ability to defend himself in a live situation. None of either training is completely useless, but one has more elements and dimensions than the other.