students who bad mouth when they leave

[lonekimono]

I would like to know what others teacher's who has been in the arts for a while feel about student's who leave and than bad mouth you to others, and what would you do after learning that this person took your crest and put it on his web site?

yours in kenpo

 

[GouRonin]

I would think that you would have legal recourse on the crest issue.

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Our system has had this problem in the past with a few former students.

If you've been careful and covered all the bases on copyright laws, you should be able to go to the student, tell them you don't approve of what they're doing and will take legal action if they continue, then make sure you follow through and enforce the copyright and its violation's consequences.

It is unfortunate that some people act this way...

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I would think that you would have legal recourse on the crest issue.

some type of slander isn't it? i'm no law expert but people can't just badmouth you at the cost of your business and livelihood.

 

[FlashingDaggers]

As one who takes Kenpo under Master Elmer, I can tell you that the student in question is doing a great injustice not only to Master Elmer but the art of Kenpo as well. It truly shows the manner of man he is if he can turn on his instructor so easily without justification. His personal attacks are nothing more than a means of drawing attention away from his shortcomings in the art, which happen to be great, and are a direct result of his insecurities plain, and simple.

 

[GouRonin]

It depends. Are the things being said true? If someone says that such and such a thing happened and it did, you can't deny it and claim it isn't true. Many times teachers and students on both sides say things that are true and really there is nothing that can be done. It's when things are said that are not true that you encounter the legal issues.

As far as system/style issues, you can't copywrite motion. Just names and words. You could learn a whole system and just re-name stuff and teach it and there really is nothing anyone can do.

As far as enforcement of the legalities. That is up to the copywrite holder to enforce.

I'd be interested to hear Doug Hall speak on this.

 

[lonekimono]

Frist let me say that i don't play he said/she said i know what this person did and so does alot of others,this person called my student's and tried to take them,why don't he get his own?
i called him and talked to him about the crest,he said that i can't prove it's mine,so after alot of bull#@% from him i told him that his rank was now revoked. so i know what is going on.
i'm not looking for someone to tell me "we feel sorry about that"
iwant the good people in the martial arts to know about this person u can see for your self www.njkenpo.com

the crest on the left is mine, he put his name inside
yours in kenpo

 

[lonekimono]

and there is one other thing about this man he says that he only teaches PARKER kenpo thats crazy he don't have rank in PARKER kenpo so when i asked him who gave the other student a green belt (who used to be with me and went with him)he told me he did but in my system.
this man is a nomad



yours in kenpo

 

[GouRonin]

I've often wondered about rank and when people say it's revoked. It's kind of a funny thing. I personally don't think it can be revoked.

In any case, if you can prove usage of the symbol in question by yourself at a date before his usage then you probably have a legal case. Heck, I bet if you had your lawyer rip off a letter threatening to sue he'd take it down. If you have a lawyer on retainer this won't cost you a thing. It's probably mostly bluff as no one wants to go to court but he probably doesn't know that and won't want to encourage a business expense he doesn't want.

As for students, well, you really can't steal students. They leave on their own. I remember Huk Planas telling me something like that. If a student leaves there is usually a reason for it, be it you, or them.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by lonekimono
Frist let me say that i don't play he said/she said i know what this person did and so does alot of others,this person called my student's and tried to take them,why don't he get his own?
i called him and talked to him about the crest,he said that i can't prove it's mine,so after alot of bull#@% from him i told him that his rank was now revoked. so i know what is going on.
i'm not looking for someone to tell me "we feel sorry about that"
iwant the good people in the martial arts to know about this person u can see for your self www.njkenpo.com

the crest on the left is mine, he put his name inside
yours in kenpo

Its misfortunate but I think that without the copyright laws behind you, theres not much you can do unless you do things the way they used to be done and openly challenge him in front of his students or something. Find a way to put him on the spot, he may choose to let the crest go.

My brother-in-law is someone who will revoke rank. I don't beleive that is fair. If he really earned it, it is his. I understand he did you wrong. But another course of action will bring you better results.

If it were between me and my Sifu he would show my students all the weaknesses in my art if you know what I mean!

 

[Shinzu]

this is unfortunate indeed. you meet many types of people in your lifetime. some good and some bad. sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.

as far as this goes... if you are confident that you do your best in training than that should and will surpass all heresay. let him do what he must, but the public will see through the false side and train elsewhere.

stay focused on where you are going and let him be the one that gets lost. best of luck

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Shinzu
you meet many types of people in your lifetime. some good and some bad. sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.
as far as this goes... if you are confident that you do your best in training than that should and will surpass all heresay. let him do what he must, but the public will see through the false side and train elsewhere.
stay focused on where you are going and let him be the one that gets lost.

A lot of good advice in this quote.

Kudos...

 

[Shinzu]

Thanx GouRonin...much respect.:asian:

 

[lonekimono]

The crazy thing about this is that i don't bother this man ,he sends me email's and has people call my student's so i know what you mean but PLEASE i want to let the people know about him
as far as taking his rank i know thats something thats hard to understand,but you see he's not a real blackbelt.
i will go into this at another time



yours in kenpo:rofl:

 

[GouRonin]

I once was in your exact same situation. I had an old teacher follow me around, (not literally) and bad mouth me via phone and behind my back. In fact, he did it to someone you and I both know. (Luckily that person showed some pretty good character and ignored it) Heck, it still goes on.

I was cheesed at first. But after a while I let it go. Why? Because I followed the best advice that has been given in this thread so far.

Originally posted by Shinzu
you meet many types of people in your lifetime. some good and some bad. sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.
as far as this goes... if you are confident that you do your best in training than that should and will surpass all heresay. let him do what he must, but the public will see through the false side and train elsewhere.
stay focused on where you are going and let him be the one that gets lost.

When people ask just tell them the truth. Say, "he trained with me for this long. He achieved this rank. He now teaches/trains elsewhere. Now, let's talk about getting you signed up to start lessons at my school!"

As for being a real blackbelt, well, that is an different issue all together. I know BB's who aren't real BB in my opinion and white belts who are BB's but just don't know it.

 

[Cruentus]

I haven't really read this whole thread yet, but here are some fore thoughts anyways....

1. Read my post on Gou's Thread "Are Belts Revokable" to get my full stance on that. The fact is, you can denounce someone as much as you want, but you can't change the past. If they earned a black belt under you, then that cannot be changed, even if you denounce them as a your studen't. My advise is I wouldn't even try this route, because you risk ruining your own credability. You can say this w/o ruining your own credability: "He knows up to his rank, but there is a lot that he doesn't know. I feel bad for his students because they would get better instruction from some of my black belt students at my school who are much more knowledgable then he." But if you say something like this: "That guy doesn't know anything, and should have never gotten his black belt!" when your the one who gave him his rank, then you risk looking like a clown! See what I mean?

2. Good luck with Legal recourse. The fact is that pirating is a commonplace in the life of the martial arts, and everyone steals from everyone whether it be technique, credentials, name recognition or what have you. Another sad fact is that the courts don't take this stuff seriously. The law could care less for Martial Arts politics, and the law cannot recognize authentic martial arts schools from McDojo's. That should explain why there are so many lyers in the martial arts; they can get away with lying about their credentials and there is almost no reprocussion by law for it. The only thing the law cares about in regards to martial arts is if there is a fight; then the law works against the martial artist.

Bottom line: for legal recourse of any kind in terms of "sueing," you have to prove beyond resonable doubt that you recieved "damages" from the actions of the other person. So, even if your school lost $$ because someone used your logo, you would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your loss was due to that other persons actions, and not by your own inefficencies in running your own school. This is very difficult to do because there is nothing imperical to measure this evidence that the courts can look at and say "O.K., I see." Heres is what I mean: Lets say you can show records that prove that all of your students left you and went to the defendent All the defendent then does is argue that the students left because he offers a better product, not because of a slander. End of the case, you lose. Your stuck because there almost is no way to imperically prove the defendents point otherwise. Even if they steal your logo and violate copywrite laws, the most they can do is get an order for you to change the logo. Even if there are fines involved, given that you can't really "prove" damages under the circumstance, these fines will not be very lucrative.

So, legal recourse is not the way to go. You would have to spend years and thousands of $$ to build up your case, and if you won you would be lucky to get even a small % of what you spent in time and $$.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad new about this one.

3. What can you do, then? I think that the best course of action would be to continue to offer a better product then the competition. That's first off. Secondly, tell the truth. Take the high road, but tell the truth. If someone asks about this person, and they are a clown, then don't be afraid to tell it like it is. People will respect your honesty, and generally will be able to tell the difference between you honesty and the other persons lies.

Just my $0.02!!!

 

[theletch1]

This seems to be a prime example of the "spirit" part of the martial arts. Even though you may have lost a few students, you most likely kept more than you lost. Don't allow the actions of a few to damage the training of the many. Legal recourses here (especially when dealing with a court on anything related to martial arts) are just going to cause your more headaches, sleepless nights than they are worth. You have already learned to take a punch well. See this as simply a punch in the face. Roll with it, then use a chosen defense of being the better instructor by showing that you understand that there is a higher goal in the martial arts than "getting even". As for letting the rest of the MA community know about this guy, Don't. You are simply giving him a lot of free publicity. Allow his own shortcomings to starve his kwoon. If the training is sub standard there will be no new students to feed the kwoon and it will die and you will have won by simply being the best instructor (and martial artist) that you can be.

My instructor recently left an organization with which he had been affiliated for quite a while. He refused to slander the old organization and admonished each of us to remain professional. That is why I stayed with him. He has his faults, even lost me as a student for a while, but he was professional enough to sit with me and discuss the situation. Admit to his faults (and I admit to a lot of my own) and agree to continue to train my sorry butt. Just goes to show that you never stop growing in the martial arts and you can always learn something from someone regardless of rank.
What do you learn from this situation? Depends on the specifics, but who you are and more to the point, what your students learn from the way you handle the situation is really all that matters.

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

What about those instructors, or other students, that bad mouth a person when they leave for whatever reason? That is just as bad as the other way around if you ask me.
Sometimes people just don't think!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
What about those instructors, or other students, that bad mouth a person when they leave for whatever reason? That is just as bad as the other way around if you ask me.
Sometimes people just don't think!

I agree. Those people are just as big of jack@$$e$ as the student who leaves orgs. and badmouth the org. The good thing is, it'll usually come back to bit them in the long run.

 

[lonekimono]

You are a true friend



yours in kenpo:asian: