Striking to the hand/forearm

[Elfan]

From http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8296

"Long ago, Arnis was a dying Filipino martial art, because of the wrong concepts in teaching the art to every student. The old practionars believed that the cane was sacred, thus blocking was aimed at the hand and the forearm and not at the cane. Most of the students got hurt and they automatically lost interest in learning arnis. ..... I have modified many antiquated techniques and introduced new ones which are easy to learn."

So in Modern Arnis (or FMA in general), when dealing with someone with another stick, do you strike to their stick or their hand/forarm when you "block"?

 

[Mao]

Most of the time when "learning" as opposed to sparring, we block or strike the cane so as not to injure our "training partner", with the understanding that in "reality" we would be targeting the hand/arm.
Mao

 

[thekuntawman]

striking the arm vs striking the stick.

people are confused about this. arnis does strike the arm, but in striking the stick, there is a purpose for that, and eskrimadors DO strike the stick in traditional eskrima. the idea that we always strike the arm is a rumor that is not true.

you strike the arm, when you angle yourself away from the opponent strike, not to replace a block. when you "block" by hitting the arm, you will still get hit by a power hit. if you want to hit the arm, you move away from the opponent at the same time, or you move into him, or you move in the same direction the stick is moving.

when you strike the stick, you do this when there is no time to move away, or you want to break his stick or disarm him. when you disarm him, you can either hit against the direction of his strike near the hand, or behind the strike (same direction of the strike). or you can hit the stick if you want to grab it or hook it.

if you are evading, you can hit the stick even if you are not in danger of getting hit, so that you can distract the opponents attention to give yourself time to counter.

when fighting empty hand opponents, its best to strike the opponents hand or leg when he is attacking. and when you are empty handed and he has the weapon, you attack the hand holding the weapon.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Both. It depends on many things. Range, speed, striking style, etc.

 

[moromoro]

i dont know about modern arnis.

But the major tagets in eskrima are the hands and head.

 

[grimfang]

In Sikaran, we practice both: striking the stick, and striking the arm/hand. In general, we prefer to strike the arm.. we work with locations across the entire length of the arm (hand/wrist/forearm/elbow/bicept/shoulder.) Naturally, any specific situation may require a different approach, so we work a wide variety of options.
Also, we practice the many of the same strikes barehanded against an armed opponent. The technique is often the same whether i possess a stick or not. The location of the strike remains the same, only the method of delivery has changed.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by grimfang
Also, we practice the many of the same strikes barehanded against an armed opponent. The technique is often the same whether i possess a stick or not. The location of the strike remains the same, only the method of delivery has changed.

Yes, I really like this about the FMA!

 

[Handsword]

I find that striking the thumb (even contouring down the stick to do so) is most effective for perseuding your opponent to let go of his weapon.

 

[Elfan]

Thanks thekuntawman, what you are saying makes perfect sense.

Mao, woudn't it preferable to find something you can actauly hit your partner with to practice instead of striking their stick in situations when you normaly woudn't? It doesn't seem desirable to practice what you don't want to do as your memorizing bad habbits.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Elfan
So in Modern Arnis (or FMA in general), when dealing with someone with another stick, do you strike to their stick or their hand/forarm when you "block"?

In my school, at long range the hand/wrist is the target as a counter offensive move. At medium range, either the stick for the block and control or the wrist/hand for the immediate counter offensive move. It all depends upon what you are setting up for your counter action.

For "cane manipulation" training I'll go for the stick. For combat I'll go for the wrist, hand or elbow.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Mao]

Elfan,
Certainly, and we do. We have Actionflex for that purpose. I understood your question to mean when using a hard stick i.e., rattan or another wood. Aslo, I mentioned that we make sure the student understands why we are hitting the cane and not the arm. If I were to hit new students on the hand/arm/ head etc. with rattan, they'd leave. There is a time and place for both.
Mao

 

[thekuntawman]

first, you can teach a student to accept getting hit. in our school, we do a lot of contact sparring and practice, but not everybody is cut out for this kind of training. after teaching on my own for 11 years, i have learned how to do this and keep students.

1. get your students to pay for two or three months when they start. this will give them enough time to learn how to accept pain.

2. start with "target practice". let the student practice his hits and stopping the stick a few inches from the partners body and head. this will teach him to keep his eyes open, and teach the striker to strike AT something instead of just swinging in the air.

3. after about 2 weks, allow the student to hit the partner first light then harder (the "target" will say, lighter harder, depending if he can take it or not). the one getting hit will only get hit as hard as he allows it. for modern arnis you can make numbers 1 and 2 to the shoulders or forearms, 3 and 4 to the thighs, 5 to the shoulder and 6 to the stomach.

4. sparring with no gear, and targets are the shoulders arms ribs stomachs and thighs. dont let them use padded sticks for 6 months, rattan only. after a few months allow them to wear headgears.

5. you can also do slow sparring, but with power. this will teach them to think and react using blockings and the free hand.

the fighters should know that just because they do a block or hit the arm, this will not guarantee that the strike wont hit them still. if you use power, and use pain as a teaching tool, they will know the real feeling of a defensive or countering technique, and will respect pain and the threat of pain, so that there technique will work. too many arnis eskrima students assume there technique will work, and they dont let themself defend from penetrating attacks, so what happens is, he really doesnot know how to block. they have to respect pain enough to try hard to stop an attack. but also they have to be use to it enough that the fear of pain does not paralyze his actions and ability to think.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have a hard time seeing a NEW FIRST DAY STUDENT swining a stick an inch from anyones head. They don't have he contol to do it.
Then in 2 weeks have them make light contact? Was that to the head also:rofl:
I like the idea of haveing them pay for three months it'll help defray the hospital costs
I'd say give me a brake but the student would be giveing whomever he practiced with Breaks:rofl:

 

[thekuntawman]

i have never had a student have this kind of accident doing this kind of practice. but then also, i get the kind of students who dont get upset about getting hit, even if its an accident. one thing i learned from a good friend about students, you get who you go after. any new person who comes in my doors knows what type of school i have, and i make sure they know what to expect. when i think a guy doesnt have it in him, we have private lessons, so i can help him build up or decide if our school is the one for him. if you go after soft students or fit your school around these kind of people, then thats what you will get.

i am not saying that all of my students have pain tolerance coming through the door. but pain tolerance is something you can teach, and good fighting instructors teach it.

as for as control, if he does not have enough control to be able to do a simple 1-6 and not hit his partner, he is not coordinated enough to learn fighting martial arts. but an adult with a full brain should be able to do this. but accidents happen, and i make sure all of my students know to expect it.

PS
one thing about accidents and injuries. it is something the fighting arts students needs. if you think you are a fighter but you panic when you get hurt, you will only be able to win fights against weaklings and people in wheelchairs (actually i met one who can fight pretty good). if you are a teacher of the fighting arts, you cannot try to protect your students from injury like they are children. like it or not, pain and injury is part of the learning process to arnis and eskrima, have you ever met an eskrimador who never had a broken finger or injured hands or arms? when these things happen, they make the fighter stronger and more resistance to panic when he experiences it.

2 examples: i had a student who got his nose broken in sparring. by the way, he had 2 black belts already, and he owns a school in my city. anyway, after one of my students who was a doctor straightened it, i made him get back up and finish his match, and he did pretty good. this was a lesson to everyone about fighting an opponent with a painful injury. he learned something that even i didnt learn, which was, what does it feel like when i fight with a broken nose.

two months later i was sparring with a student who had a instructor ranking in serrada, and he broke my thumb. in front of my whole class, i had to finish my match, and still spar about 5 more students in class (there was 15 in my class, and everyone got one round with me). anyway, i was in pain ( i didnt know it was broken then) and it was HARD. but hey at 31 years old, i finally learned what my own student learned before me. (we were stickfighting that day)

any student who is being told he is learning COMBAT, who is being protected from pain at the same time, is being cheated.

 

[thekuntawman]

one more example, from a presas style arnis black belter:

roy fune, who is a student of ernesto presas was fighting in a stickfighting tournament in manila. his free hand was hit between the fingers, and split down the middle. one of mr presas students wrapped it, and put him back in the fight. i remember thinking, how tough this sonofab*ch is, hes bleeding all over the place.

roy is one of my best brothers in arnis, if anyone in the DC/MD area wants to learn how to fight, i suggest you look him up. btw, he told me he is planning to open a school soon.

 

[tshadowchaser]

i am not saying that all of my students have pain tolerance coming through the door. but pain tolerance is something you can teach, and good fighting instructors teach it.i am not saying that all of my students have pain tolerance coming through the door. but pain tolerance is something you can teach, and good fighting instructors teach it.

I agree with this . students can learn to ignor and absorb pain. It takes time and each person has their own limits but it sometimes is a learning process.

one thing about accidents and injuries. it is something the fighting arts students needs. if you think you are a fighter but you panic when you get hurt, you will only be able to win fights against weaklings and people in wheelchairs (actually i met one who can fight pretty good). (sorry this should have been in quotes)

How verry true. If you have never been hit in the face you just might crumble and stop fighting when you do get hit. If you have never fought with a broken hand you most likely not know how.

as for as control, if he does not have enough control to be able to do a simple 1-6 and not hit his partner, he is not coordinated enough to learn fighting martial arts. but an adult with a full brain should be able to do this. but accidents happen, and i make sure all of my students know to expect it.

This also can be learned in time by some. Some people are just not naturaly coordinated but can become so with practice

I think we alltake a chance when we have student do any type of drill where contact is done for the first time or when we trust a student to pull a technique just short of hitting. I think we also learn to judge or anticipate what a student may do by observeing them and talking with them. Attitute and intent come to the surface quickly when being hit or hitting.



tshadowchaser :asian:

 

[Mao]

Found this while searching for a kamagong stick supplier in the Philippines.


RATTAN - THE TOOL OF EVERY FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTIST

Rattan-plants have a diameter of max. 10 cm and grow mainly in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. Its natural color is yellow to brown with green and grey tones. They were peeled and then colored.

Characteristic:

Knots, rough parts and crevices , partly dark spots with marks of insect damage. Today rattan is being cultivated in gardens or plantages. There are more than 200 different rattan-sorts, but there are only 6 hard ones which are good enough for cultivation. It is up to 25 meters long and absolutely crooked. It is formed by warming it with steam, which is some hundred gradues celsius hot. The more knots there are the harder is the stick. Rattan is used by philippine martial artists, because the energy which is put on the stick will not be tr VALIGN="Top"ansferred to the arm. This would happen permanent, when you use plastic or hard-wood-sticks. A rattan-stick even more will not break so that the parts fly through the room, which could hurt other persons. It is also better for your fingers, when they are hit by a rattan stick, than by a hard-wood-stick. The danger of Arthrose is very high, when your finger-joints are hit by a hard-wood-stick several times. This is very painful and you cannot move your fingers anymore. Don´t let yourself tell from any guro, that you have to hit yourselves with half trees. These people have no clue and therefore attack you health. I myself did this 20 years ago and that´s the reason why my fingers look the way they do today.