Strike the hand

[fangjian]

It seems like around 75% of the time that when I am reading the history of Modern Arnis and look at the accomplishments of Remy Presas, I often see something like this:


"One of Remy Presas' contributions to FMA, and probably, one of the most important contributions, was the idea of striking stick to stick. In classical FMA the stick is considered sacred so Eskrimadors would always strike the hand instead. Remy changed this idea and now FMA is safer and more widespread now because that. "

Now I don't mean to take anything away from someone like Remy Presas, since he is a pioneer, but this seems rather silly. Presas invented this concept? C'mon. He studied Balintawak. We often defend stick to stick.

Some may think I am nitpicking but I hate misinformation, no matter how small.

 

[Carol]

I agree with you completely.

Not an arnisador myself, but if I'm not mistaken....Modern Arnis also incorporates stick-to-hand strikes, does it not? The kind best practiced with sturdy Lameco gloves? Stick-to-stick is a basic form of combat. Rattan frays instead of shattering, combatives can be drilled with mimimal protective gear.

Professor Presas was an amazing arnisador. His innovations are recognized not only within the FMAs but outside as well. Misinformation is not needed, his accomplishments stand on their own, and have made their place in history. I think that is the best compliment of all to the Professor's legacy. :asian:

 

[fangjian]

I agree with you completely.

Not an arnisador myself, but if I'm not mistaken....Modern Arnis also incorporates stick-to-hand strikes, does it not? The kind best practiced with sturdy Lameco gloves? Stick-to-stick is a basic form of combat. Rattan frays instead of shattering, combatives can be drilled with mimimal protective gear.

Professor Presas was an amazing arnisador. His innovations are recognized not only within the FMAs but outside as well. Misinformation is not needed, his accomplishments stand on their own, and have made their place in history. I think that is the best compliment of all to the Professor's legacy. :asian:

I can't say for certain as my main practice is Balintawak, but I would imagine that like 90% of all FMA has this concept in their curriculum.

 

[Carol]

I can't say for certain as my main practice is Balintawak, but I would imagine that like 90% of all FMA has this concept in their curriculum.

Indeed. Basic strikes of largo, etc.

 

[Mark Lynn]

It seems like around 75% of the time that when I am reading the history of Modern Arnis and look at the accomplishments of Remy Presas, I often see something like this:


"One of Remy Presas' contributions to FMA, and probably, one of the most important contributions, was the idea of striking stick to stick. In classical FMA the stick is considered sacred so Eskrimadors would always strike the hand instead. Remy changed this idea and now FMA is safer and more widespread now because that. "

Now I don't mean to take anything away from someone like Remy Presas, since he is a pioneer, but this seems rather silly. Presas invented this concept? C'mon. He studied Balintawak. We often defend stick to stick.

Some may think I am nitpicking but I hate misinformation, no matter how small.

I agree that this sounds like misinformation, however it might be misinterpretation. Bear with me.

Remy modernized the teaching concepts of arnis in trying to bring it into the school systems to revive a dying art. In the 60's/70's the rage of martial arts in the Philippines was that of Karate, Judo, and GM Remy sought to bring the martial arts of the Philippines into main land society. He followed the same model as what the Okinawan's did at the turn of the century and tried to organize the art and bring it into everyday life through the schools.

In order to have kids/teachers practice it safely he taught the stick to stick method of blocking, as well as taking the emphasis off of sparing and more along the lines of self defense. This way the kids would enjoy it more since it was safer and less painful.

Also Remy organized a curriculum and designed it to be taught in a larger group format instead of the one on one format that was taught before. Again taking the model of karate or other asian martial arts, he added belts and principles designed to appeal to masses students and the educators.

So in essence what Remy did was try and take out the pure combative nature of the art, making the hand the primary target and mainly training for a 5 second fight, and instead make it an art for self defense and for cultural improvement. Later when he traveled around the world it was to high light the Filipino culture and he did this by spreading his art.

Changing the focus/or purpose of his method of teaching the art and promoting the art was an important contribution to the FMAs. In fact it was one of the most important contributions to the FMAs because it brought the art into the mainstream. So I agree with the author who was quoted saying that one of Remy's most important contributions was changing the blocking method but it was for (I believe a different reason) than what the author stated.

 

[Rich Parsons]

It seems like around 75% of the time that when I am reading the history of Modern Arnis and look at the accomplishments of Remy Presas, I often see something like this:


"One of Remy Presas' contributions to FMA, and probably, one of the most important contributions, was the idea of striking stick to stick. In classical FMA the stick is considered sacred so Eskrimadors would always strike the hand instead. Remy changed this idea and now FMA is safer and more widespread now because that. "

Now I don't mean to take anything away from someone like Remy Presas, since he is a pioneer, but this seems rather silly. Presas invented this concept? C'mon. He studied Balintawak. We often defend stick to stick.

Some may think I am nitpicking but I hate misinformation, no matter how small.

I agree that this sounds like misinformation, however it might be misinterpretation. Bear with me.

Remy modernized the teaching concepts of arnis in trying to bring it into the school systems to revive a dying art. In the 60's/70's the rage of martial arts in the Philippines was that of Karate, Judo, and GM Remy sought to bring the martial arts of the Philippines into main land society. He followed the same model as what the Okinawan's did at the turn of the century and tried to organize the art and bring it into everyday life through the schools.

In order to have kids/teachers practice it safely he taught the stick to stick method of blocking, as well as taking the emphasis off of sparing and more along the lines of self defense. This way the kids would enjoy it more since it was safer and less painful.

Also Remy organized a curriculum and designed it to be taught in a larger group format instead of the one on one format that was taught before. Again taking the model of karate or other asian martial arts, he added belts and principles designed to appeal to masses students and the educators.

So in essence what Remy did was try and take out the pure combative nature of the art, making the hand the primary target and mainly training for a 5 second fight, and instead make it an art for self defense and for cultural improvement. Later when he traveled around the world it was to high light the Filipino culture and he did this by spreading his art.

Changing the focus/or purpose of his method of teaching the art and promoting the art was an important contribution to the FMAs. In fact it was one of the most important contributions to the FMAs because it brought the art into the mainstream. So I agree with the author who was quoted saying that one of Remy's most important contributions was changing the blocking method but it was for (I believe a different reason) than what the author stated.

To add a little bit more, in the 1950's many of the escrimadors would just as soon hit you and break you as to train with you. If they could knock you out they did. If you understand this as the norm, then you can see where many would not want to train, as they had to go to work and could not walk around with bruises like the street thugs.


As to Mark's comments about other arts, I still meet Filipino's/Filipina's who swear to me that the art of their home land is Karate or Judo of Kung Fu as that was all the schools they saw or a few trained in.


So, now comes a guy ( Remy ) who says to target the canes and give more room between people so hits to the head ( knock outs ) are not an accident. This way more people could train, and he could target college students. From College Students he was then given the chance to work with High School and then the complete school system. When working with kids most people want safety for them.


And yes Remy did train and was known as a fighter within the Balintawak crowd while he was in Cebu. Yes, he did teach hand strikes, but he taught control and he taught safety so people were not injured before they had a chance to learn.

While what was written, is not how I would have written it, I can see where it would lead you and others to ask the same question.

 

[fangjian]

Yeah. People like Remy and Teofilo Velez had changed the brutal method of instruction to something that will not leave bruises every time you play.

 

[Mark Lynn]

To add a little bit more, in the 1950's many of the escrimadors would just as soon hit you and break you as to train with you. If they could knock you out they did. If you understand this as the norm, then you can see where many would not want to train, as they had to go to work and could not walk around with bruises like the street thugs.

Per what I remember reading or hearing in interviews/lectures at seminars form Guro Inosanto, I think a big part of it was coming out of WW2 many of the escrimadors were tried of war/violence and went on to other jobs such as farm workers here in the states and such. To the point of not really even teaching their own off spring their arts. Plus I also remember reading other accounts of how brutal the training was with getting wacked all over with the sticks, feed a high forehand strike and get hit, then learn to block it and then add a second strike and get hit again and so on. This is not a way to promote an fighting art, you can make a good fighter, but not promote and grow an school.

Also from talks with Remy, I understood it to be that at any given time someone could ask for a lesson, or to check their stick (which would be a challenge to a fight), and therefore many people would lay low and not advertize their skills. So once again this tends to let the art die away.

So, now comes a guy ( Remy ) who says to target the canes and give more room between people so hits to the head ( knock outs ) are not an accident. This way more people could train, and he could target college students. From College Students he was then given the chance to work with High School and then the complete school system. When working with kids most people want safety for them.

The story I heard from Remy was that he was a land baron's fighter (head of security) and he gave Remy a letter which opened another opportunity to teach a person up the social ladder and this upward movement in time opened the door for Remy to talk with the head of the school systems (or a school system) ultimately teaching for the Dept.of Education of the Philppines. Remy felt it was his destiny to promote Arnis and I believe considering his background of fighting he would devise a way to promote the art and make a successful living at it.

And yes Remy did train and was known as a fighter within the Balintawak crowd while he was in Cebu. Yes, he did teach hand strikes, but he taught control and he taught safety so people were not injured before they had a chance to learn.

Remy got his skill from fighting with the Balintawak gym and also from going around and fighting other masters of different styles and/or areas. I think this experience also helped him in his formulating a style of arnis that was more generalized and changed the focus to one of self defense and not just stick fighting.

Also I think it changed his outlook (on life) and his goals to promote the art and make a living doing it. I believe once Remy saw that he make a living teaching he changed his approach radically, with hitting the stick just one of the changes he made.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Per what I remember reading or hearing in interviews/lectures at seminars form Guro Inosanto, I think a big part of it was coming out of WW2 many of the escrimadors were tried of war/violence and went on to other jobs such as farm workers here in the states and such. To the point of not really even teaching their own off spring their arts. Plus I also remember reading other accounts of how brutal the training was with getting wacked all over with the sticks, feed a high forehand strike and get hit, then learn to block it and then add a second strike and get hit again and so on. This is not a way to promote an fighting art, you can make a good fighter, but not promote and grow an school.

Also from talks with Remy, I understood it to be that at any given time someone could ask for a lesson, or to check their stick (which would be a challenge to a fight), and therefore many people would lay low and not advertize their skills. So once again this tends to let the art die away.




The story I heard from Remy was that he was a land baron's fighter (head of security) and he gave Remy a letter which opened another opportunity to teach a person up the social ladder and this upward movement in time opened the door for Remy to talk with the head of the school systems (or a school system) ultimately teaching for the Dept.of Education of the Philppines. Remy felt it was his destiny to promote Arnis and I believe considering his background of fighting he would devise a way to promote the art and make a successful living at it.



Remy got his skill from fighting with the Balintawak gym and also from going around and fighting other masters of different styles and/or areas. I think this experience also helped him in his formulating a style of arnis that was more generalized and changed the focus to one of self defense and not just stick fighting.

Also I think it changed his outlook (on life) and his goals to promote the art and make a living doing it. I believe once Remy saw that he make a living teaching he changed his approach radically, with hitting the stick just one of the changes he made.

WWII - Many of the fighters died, and those that did not, knew about some serious applications.

Yes challenges and or checking people out happened all the time. Which is why I ask, do you want me to be a compliant partner or am I allowed to move. I ask this first, to understand the intent. If they want to check me out I want to react the way I would and that way we can see what is or would happen. If they want a complient partner I am willing to work with them and to not "play" with them so no one is embarrased. I have had this happened where they expected less from me and were surprised. I think it is still a good idea, personally.

Remy did get a lot of good training from those withing Balintawak school. He also trained with and against others.

Yes Remy did connect up with a rich and powerful person who had support ( guys with guns ) so he could fight others and not have to worry about the other side and thier guns. He also was training the "Land Baron's" (your term not mine) son. This is where he would tell stories about having to be good at disarms so as not to leave bruises on the son's body.

Quick time line: Remy Born 1936 leaves home at 14 and goes to Cebu for a few years. Leaves from there and trains and fights with others. 1957 (* The inside cover of "The Practical Art of Escrima" states: *) he was teaching at a college in Bacalod City. Remy was 21 in Bacalod, where he met his future wife and also opened his school.

From the afterwads of "Modern Arnis Philippine Martial Art "Stick Fighting" ", The Man Behind Modern Arnis:
"Remy was not only successful in that respect. HIs business in the city also went well and he was also teaching pysical education (with emphasis on Arnis ) in De la Salle College, then in the University of Negros Occidental-Recoletos, being a holder of a bachelor's degree in education major in physical education. Remy was then a very successful man, a sucess capped by the encouraging outcome of his crusade to revive the lost glory of Arnis.
Then in 1968 Remy was confronted with a decision that was to become a turning point in his life. In one of his summer sessions at the Rizal Memorial Sports Arena in Manilia, the sports Mecca of the Philippines, Col. Aresenio de Borja, secretary-treasury of the Philippine Amatuer Atheletic Federal and Director of the National College of Physical Education, Mr. Philip Moncerrat, former President of PAAF, and Professor Jose Gregorio, took notice of Remy. Upon learning of Remy's crusade, they asked him to further his crusade in Manila, the seat of national influence in any field of activity. In Manilia, the interest of the whole country would be drawn, Remy was told.
...
In 1969, Remy brought his family to Manila. He then established a gymnasium in the heart of Manila's commercial district and founded the National Amateur Karate Organization (NAKO). ... "

Your comment has it all in direct connection, and they are to a point as it was Remy's Life, but they were separate. Remy did his travels and fights then opened his school and taught in Bacalod City and then a decade later he was in Manila and was approached for further advancement and recognition of what he was teachinig.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Yes Remy did connect up with a rich and powerful person who had support ( guys with guns ) so he could fight others and not have to worry about the other side and thier guns. He also was training the "Land Baron's" (your term not mine) son. This is where he would tell stories about having to be good at disarms so as not to leave bruises on the son's body.

Rich
The term "land baron" was what Remy used when he was telling my friend and I about his travels and how he got to where he was. I took it as a someone important who had money and owned Sugar Cane fields, but in looking over my notes I used his words as opposed to what I thought he meant.

Your comment has it all in direct connection, and they are to a point as it was Remy's Life, but they were separate. Remy did his travels and fights then opened his school and taught in Bacalod City and then a decade later he was in Manila and was approached for further advancement and recognition of what he was teachinig.

Again I took what I wrote from my notes from the conversation we had, he didn't really give a time line per say rather it was more generalized like I wrote.

Reading back over my notes from that seminar and my discussion with Remy I got the feeling it was more of a generalized talk about how he advanced using the system. Fighting for this guy, led to meeting this person and all till he finally achieved his goal.

Regardless thanks for your post.
Mark

 

[Thesemindz]

...he taught control and he taught safety so people were not injured before they had a chance to learn...

It's amazing to me how innovative this concept can be.


-Rob