Strategy vs strength. Which is more important?

[TenHands]

My definition is different.

1. Skill (technique) is something you learn in school.
2. Ability (power/speed) is something you develop at home.
3. Strategy is how to enter safely and finish your job quickly.

Wang, habibi, I have always admired your expert analysis and tactical, smart mindset.

Regrettably, though, I wish to become a caveman and achieve victory though Unga Bunga. I see the arms and legs not as dueling weapons but as wrecking balls and I wish to develop this brute force ability.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. What good is superior power if you can't land it?

Power without speed is not that scary. But power plus speed can be deadly.

Machine gun with speed and power doesn't need accuracy.

 

[Sammy Naur]

. There is always a lucky punch. There is no lucky throw.

- In striking art, ability may defeat skill.
- In throwing art, skill may defeat ability because speed and strength are not that important.

Sorry I completely disagree, throwing arts are full of lucky throws, sweeps, etc. Successful throws are often the result of lucky timing.

You also said strength and speed are not important in throwing arts? They are fundamental to all throwing arts. What throwing art doesn't use strength and speed??

 

[TenHands]

Power without speed is not that scary. But power plus speed can be deadly.

Machine gun with speed and power doesn't need accuracy.

I would rather face a machine gun than a nuke, though.

In other words, I'd rather face a dog than a bear.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sorry I completely disagree, throwing arts are full of lucky throws, sweeps, etc. Successful throws are often the result of lucky timing.

You also said strength and speed are not important in throwing arts? They are fundamental to all throwing arts. What throwing art doesn't use strength and speed??

Lucky punch is you don't know any striking skill; you hit your opponent by accident.

Lucky throw is you don't know any throwing skill; you take your opponent down by accident.

We may share different experience on this. One of my friends made a public statement that if anybody could throw him once when he played 100% defense, he would give that person a black belt. Until my friend passed away, nobody had ever thrown him down yet.

In this video, the record is 5-0. As far as I can remember, when those 2 guys wrestled, the score was always 5-0. A low belt just can't have lucky throw against a higher belt.

In throwing art after 2 bodies are connected, everything starts to slow down (compare to the striking art).

If you watch any BJJ game, it's like boxing in slow motion. Also, power is not that critical in BJJ game either.

 

[Haruhiko]

Sorry I completely disagree, throwing arts are full of lucky throws, sweeps, etc. Successful throws are often the result of lucky timing.

You also said strength and speed are not important in throwing arts? They are fundamental to all throwing arts. What throwing art doesn't use strength and speed??

If it's luck then the opponent is leaving too many openings for opportunity, or you've accidentally done something, which breaks flow.

There's no room for luck if you're prepared. Luck isn't acquired, it's a symptom of poor form that gives either you or your opponent the advantage by chance. You can't learn from luck. You can't depend on luck.

Lucky timing is really your "no-mind" taking advantage of an opportunity.

 

[juruth]

Size and strength generally beats even good technique. Hence weight classes. Hence big men generally being feared in all cultures. Now a big strong man who has developed a knockout punch by adding some heavy bag training to his powerlifting routine is a dangerous man indeed. A street fight doesn't look like a boxing match, point karate or a kung fu movie. Lift weights, hit the heavy bag. No gi's, senseis, or chi needed.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Becoming an all-rounder is a wise approach. You can be as strong as an ox and still have no chance. Look at the Eddie Hall fight posted earlier. Eddie is strong but lacks the skill to apply that power effectively in a fight. Being a one-trick pony is not the most sensible approach to take. Strength, stamina, speed and skill applied with a good strategy is the harder path, but if fighting was as easy as just having a powerful punch then Eddie Hall should have won the fight in style. Yet he was nowhere near winning due to believing his strength would win the day. Thor on the other hand had at least put the time in an learnt some basic boxing skills. Anyway, train however you please and test your findings in the ring or on the mat - talking doesn't prepare anyone to win the fight, at the end of the day you have to put in the time in to reap the rewards of a well-rounded training programme.

 

[HighKick]

I saw a video of strongman Eddie Hall once where he said something along the lines of "I'm not the best fighter but I have the most powerful punch in the world."

This got me thinking of the traditional idea of Karate being a way of turning your body into a weapon, rather than a "fighting" style. In other words, the idea hardening your limbs and fine-tuning your individual techniques to be very powerful, rather than developing a strategy for 1v1 consensual "fighting."

So, what is more important: making your individual techniques super powerful through hard conditioning, or a more well-rounded focus on fighting strategy? In other words, who would be more safe during a prototypical "self defense" situation: a guy with the most powerful punch ever or a guy who is the best "fighter" ever?

Yes, to both in the context of your post.

But to be more specific to your last query about "who would be more safe during a prototypical self-defense situation", I would say the person with the best strategy. Having a killer punch isn't always going to be of the most benefit.

 

[Badhabits]

In a back and forth fight you have some time to strategize. In other circumstances you might not. Strategy is good, but you'd better have drilled to the point your body can do things without having to consciously think about those strategies. I've been literally ambushed by someone running out of the woods- once they're on top of you your brain can't get in the way, no time to consciously use strategy. If you haven't drilled to the point things "manifest" without thought you're going to be behind the ball

 

[Sammy Naur]

Also, power is not that critical in BJJ game either.

It sure is. Power is used in many parts of BJJ especially transitions. BJJ is two people fighting for control, without power you have no chance.

 

[Sammy Naur]

A low belt just can't have lucky throw against a higher belt.

Sure they can. Anybody can pull off a lucky throw.

Experts do it all the time. So do new people. You seem to be equating "luck" with untrained but reality is a lot more prone to chance, hence luck. Training can move the odds around but there are no sure things.

 

[Sammy Naur]

If it's luck then the opponent is leaving too many openings for opportunity, or you've accidentally done something, which breaks flow.

There's no room for luck if you're prepared. Luck isn't acquired, it's a symptom of poor form

Eh disagree. Plenty of people with great form crash into the ground because of a chance nuance.

I think it's important to remember that skill and training only take you so far, the universe often has its own plan.

that gives either you or your opponent the advantage by chance. You can't learn from luck. You can't depend on luck.

Lucky timing is really your "no-mind" taking advantage of an opportunity.

But again this implies your training and skill overcome everything, which is an unrealistic ideation.

Luck means by chance, vs. intentional action but any realisitic alive engagement is a mix of both.

Black belts in judo and BJJ trip, lose balance, and fall. That's a good example of chance deciding for them. No amount of skill is going to overcome stepping back awkwardly and spraining your ankle, which also happens all the time to very skilled people with great timing and strength.

But I'll say that the better you train, the less luck can grab you and hurt you, maybe. That's the key theory to ukemi.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Eddie is strong but lacks the skill to apply that power effectively in a fight.

To be fair you are saying this in the context of him boxing The Mountain. I don't think it's fair to say he lacks skill, just that Hafthor had more.

They would both kill either of us. One punch and we would wake up on Saturn.

 

[windwalker099]

If you watch any BJJ game, it's like boxing in slow motion. Also, power is not that critical in BJJ game either.

Agree

From interactions with BJJ practitioners, they demonstrated excellent "听劲" (Tīng Jìn) or listening skill, though perhaps not at the same level as advanced Taiji practitioners.

In BJJ, there is a term "empty jacket" that alludes to a similar skill set, developed differently.

Empty jacket Jiu Jitsu is about giving your opponent no clear qeue’s on how they should apply their strength.

"interactions " = them trying to close the gap and do some type of take down.
Those I met were extremely quick and fast.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Strategy is good, but you'd better have drilled to the point your body can do things without having to consciously think about those strategies.

You make a good point. One good strategy is to use kick to deal with punch (the leg is longer than the arm). You have to train it become your subconscious move. Your opponent runs toward and tries to knock your head off. He runs into your kick, break his ribs, and drop down in front of you. You still don't know what had just happened. Your leg kicks out without order from your brain. That's true MA "door guarding skill".

To train this, you need a partner who holds a kicking shield and runs toward you 100 times daily. You also need to train this on a small target (such as a leg size tree).

 

[Badhabits]

You make a good point. One good strategy is to use kick to deal with punch (the leg is longer than the arm). You have to train it become your subconscious move. Your opponent runs toward and tries to knock your head off. He runs into your kick, break his ribs, and drop down in front of you. You still don't know what had just happened. Your leg kicks out without order from your brain. That's true MA "door guarding skill".

To train this, you need a partner who holds a kicking shield and runs toward you 100 times daily. You also need to train this on a small target (such as a leg size tree).

I've actually had something similar happen at a party. This is going to sound dumb as hell but it's a true story. A guy came at me from the side, one hand cocked back beside his head ready to punch. He had one knee up. Some kind of half a$$ed super man punch I guess. I just time time to catch movement out the side of my eye and my right foot shot out in a side kick. A snapping kick at that. No thought involved, automatic reaction. With time to think a side kick would NOT have been it. There's a million other things I'd rather have done. But my foot hit that raised knee and the guy ended up flat on his back. Ill bet I couldn't make that happen again if I tried to.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

my right foot shot out in a side kick.

Side kick is good too. But front toes push kick is better. Your reach is a bit longer (plus foot length). Also, you can punch with both hands instead of just being able to punch 1 hand after the kick.

 

[Buka]

I've actually had something similar happen at a party. This is going to sound dumb as hell but it's a true story. A guy came at me from the side, one hand cocked back beside his head ready to punch. He had one knee up. Some kind of half a$$ed super man punch I guess. I just time time to catch movement out the side of my eye and my right foot shot out in a side kick. A snapping kick at that. No thought involved, automatic reaction. With time to think a side kick would NOT have been it. There's a million other things I'd rather have done. But my foot hit that raised knee and the guy ended up flat on his back. Ill bet I couldn't make that happen again if I tried to.

I’d take that bet. I bet you could.

 

[Haruhiko]

I've actually had something similar happen at a party. This is going to sound dumb as hell but it's a true story. A guy came at me from the side, one hand cocked back beside his head ready to punch. He had one knee up. Some kind of half a$$ed super man punch I guess. I just time time to catch movement out the side of my eye and my right foot shot out in a side kick. A snapping kick at that. No thought involved, automatic reaction. With time to think a side kick would NOT have been it. There's a million other things I'd rather have done. But my foot hit that raised knee and the guy ended up flat on his back. Ill bet I couldn't make that happen again if I tried to.

I have an almost identical story.

House party at friend's place, we were in their large garage chilling out (standing, mostly, drinking).

I was talking with a mate next to a brick wall, and peripherally I saw/observed a bloke who we had an altercation with earlier on in the night. More of a misunderstanding than anything. In any case he obviously held a grudge, because he stood about a metre from us just watching.

I continued talking to my friend, and the conversation moved to "you know he's going to hit you, right?", to which I replied "he won't" then continued to another topic. I didn't say this from arrogance, but more to avoid speaking about him.

He moved within striking distance, and lunged with a punch. I stepped back. He fist met the wall, and we later found out he broke some bones.